Woodface Deluxe Reissue discussion

One of the most important tracks on the deluxe edition is Fall At Your Feet early version.. well it and Left Hand... though Left Hand is important across various albums...

The Finn demos are great as ever, Fields Are Full Of Your Kind is a great addition. 

The unheard song demos are very interesting - they consistently show how the writing process works - stick with them as they will suddenly morph into something you know..

 

and how could I forget Be My Guest - why was this never given a full album spot?

Stuff I think about Woodface by Harry Trousers


- we have 7 songs recorded for album #3 on Afterglow. 3 more on the deluxe edition of Woodface. Tim Finn put out the attempt at "Throw your Arms around me" and there is a dodgy version of "Sound on Truth" out on the interweb. 

Crowded House can legitimately lay claim to having a lost album.

- Many of these reject songs have that bright reverb on the drums. Same as you can hear on "Whispers and Moans" and "Fame Is". It is as if that album was recorded right when tastes changed from 80s reverb to the more dry 90s sound. I wonder if the songs could be accurately divided into recording sessions by their drum sound.

- Neil Finn seemed really into having a yearning verse followed by a shouty bluesy chorus (see 'Sacred Cow', 'Fields', 'creek song/left hand'). Vice versa in the case of Fall at your Feet. I think he pulled it off on "In My Command".

- "Be My Guest" is awesome.

 

Shadowman posted:

From the Finn Bros session there is also: 

- Strangeness and charm (on the Tim Finn album)

- In love with it all (on Tim Finn album)

- Prodigal son (bside of Suffer Never?)

Plus the still missing Cemetery in the Rain. 

And have I been mis-informed, or was Sound of Truth not Finn Bros. instead of CH? I had it as being part of the Murchison Street demos for the aborted Finn Brothers album.

There is a bunch of footage from periscope studio and the whole band is there. Mark Hart puts some keyboard on "sound of truth" then they play it back. Neil Finn explains that his lyrics are just nonsense so the song isn't finished but it sounds great. There is also a scene where Nick Seymour talks about a song he wrote with some instrumental thing playing in the background.

If this has been mentioned elsewhere I apologize. My Woodface reissue disc has a problem with Tall Trees -- near the end, for about 1 second, there is some kind of muck up that sounds like phasing between the two channels. I'm not sure how else to describe it, but there is a definite audio problem that is not on the original. I ripped it in secure mode and the rip says 100.0% accuracy, but the problem is there so it must be on the disc. I compared with my old rip of Woodface to be sure.

So, wanting an error-free track, I went to 7digital and paid to download a FLAC of Tall Trees from the reissued Woodface. Guess what, the issue is on that too...so it's not just me.

Hate to say it but apparently, at least some of the discs were pressed with an error on Tall Trees. Hoping that's the only problem track I find.

If anyone out there does NOT have this issue, and wouldn't mind getting a clean FLAC of Tall Trees to me, I would very much appreciate it -- I already paid for it (twice) so I don't think there's any legality issue there.

slowpogo posted:

 

Hate to say it but apparently, at least some of the discs were pressed with an error on Tall Trees. Hoping that's the only problem track I find.

Yeah I just ripped a FLAC of Tall Trees from the re-issue and found the same error. Starts at 2:03.

Not a huge problem for me since I've already got the original album, but still a bit of a shame.

I ripped the 10 seconds starting at the 2'00" mark as a wav and put it on Finnatics for you to check for yourself. Right here I don't have the eq (good speakers, headphones) to compare the original CD with the reissue well enough to tell. So if this should sound ok to you, I can provide you with the FLAC of the song (PM me for that).

Dorthonion posted:

I ripped the 10 seconds starting at the 2'00" mark as a wav and put it on Finnatics for you to check for yourself. Right here I don't have the eq (good speakers, headphones) to compare the original CD with the reissue well enough to tell. So if this should sound ok to you, I can provide you with the FLAC of the song (PM me for that).

The bit you ripped has the error as well. It's like a glitch in the right audio channel, particularly noticeable if you're using headphones.

That's pretty disappointing, especially as it just arrived this morning. I know Sony had a couple of disc replacement exercises for Bob Dylan discs that had errors that only affected fractions of seconds. The Steve Hoffman forum is good for finding out such information. I wonder if Universal will replace the first disc for either those that have purchased or for later runs. 

re: Audio glitch on Tal Trees: Oh good, I thought it was just me!

If Universal could fix that error somehow and replace it with new pressings that would be fantastic. Like that DVD error with the 2006 live Split Enz DVD, would it be possible to mail out replacement discs? I'm sure the forum would let us know if this was to happen.

Dazz posted:

re: Audio glitch on Tal Trees: Oh good, I thought it was just me!

If Universal could fix that error somehow and replace it with new pressings that would be fantastic. Like that DVD error with the 2006 live Split Enz DVD, would it be possible to mail out replacement discs? I'm sure the forum would let us know if this was to happen.

I'd be perfectly fine with just a lossless file - Universal should make it a free download to the public on their website, no download codes or any of that crap. Just a free track to anyone who wants it. Tall Trees wasn't a single so they shouldn't mind too much, but they gotta suck it up because they made a pretty big, unprofessional screwup. It's not the most important thing for any of us to worry about, but at the same time it's a massive eye-roller.

although I forget, some people do still play the actual CD...

slowpogo posted:
Dazz posted:

re: Audio glitch on Tal Trees: Oh good, I thought it was just me!

If Universal could fix that error somehow and replace it with new pressings that would be fantastic. Like that DVD error with the 2006 live Split Enz DVD, would it be possible to mail out replacement discs? I'm sure the forum would let us know if this was to happen.

I'd be perfectly fine with just a lossless file - Universal should make it a free download to the public on their website, no download codes or any of that crap. Just a free track to anyone who wants it. Tall Trees wasn't a single so they shouldn't mind too much, but they gotta suck it up because they made a pretty big, unprofessional screwup. It's not the most important thing for any of us to worry about, but at the same time it's a massive eye-roller.

although I forget, some people do still play the actual CD...

Yep I still play the actual CD. I have never bothered with loseless files and not intending to do so in the forseeable future

I still find it hard to believe that nobody involved with the remaster project heard that glitch in Tall Trees. It's too obvious to ignore. So no one was around for a playback? Careless.

I dunno. These things happen, especially when it's a multi-album project. Maybe they thought it was a tremolo effect (don't laugh, it's possible.) Not as easy to spot the fault on speakers as it is on headphones - unless you already know it's there. Couldn't be 100% sure I would have spotted it if I'd been given a playback on speakers ahead of release.

It's only tall trees, it's hardly a classic :-)

In all seriousness, together with the messed up fades on I walk away and together alone, it does feel like the main albums were prepared pretty carelessly. It would only take a person reasonably familiar with the albums to give them a listen through prior to them being sent off to be manufactured.

IainK posted:

It's only tall trees, it's hardly a classic :-)

In all seriousness, together with the messed up fades on I walk away and together alone, it does feel like the main albums were prepared pretty carelessly. It would only take a person reasonably familiar with the albums to give them a listen through prior to them being sent off to be manufactured.

I've always liked Tall Trees. But, why do you assume the lack of fade outs on those other tracks is a mistake? Fades are a decision made during the mastering process, and being that the albums were remastered, apparently a different decision was made this time around. I think it's consistent with the "peek behind the curtain" offered by the bonus discs. I don't think it's a mistake, unlike the Tall Trees thing.

I certainly don't think the extended versions of a couple of tracks is lack of care.  To me it seems completely normal to include these seeing as a main selling point of these albums is the fact that there are tons of unreleased and 'different' versions of well-known songs.  And if people aren't a fan of the new endings, there are always the original pressings to revert back to.

I'd probably agree with it not being a 'care' issue, and perhaps limitations of what was available for the remasters.  I know, your instance, that some of The Band's albums on CD are not the same tracks as the original LPs. If everything was available, however, and someone chose to alter the songs without input from the band, I'd say it's questionable, though perhaps more common practice than you'd like to think. 

Whether one likes Tall Trees is not the point though is it? (For the record, I like it). I understand Jaffaman's reply. Having so many albums to master and collecting so much bonus material to do (not to mention organising interviews and artwork for the books - all excellent by the way), it's not hard to believe that something was bound to fall through the cracks.

Didn't Don Bartley notice it though when mastering the album? Or whoever it was at Abbey Road heard it when transferring the tapes to hi-res? Maybe they went out to grab a coffee during that that track . Anyway I'm not going to throw the disc out in disgust and I do love the remastering audio glitch aside.

As for the different fades and full endings etc...  Who would have a problem with that unless it is a shorter version/edit than  the original. Hearing the full end of "Can't Carry On" was a pleasent surprise although I first heard it on the 5.1 mix. (The surround mix was so different to the stereo with variations a-plenty!).

Dazz posted:

 so many albums and collecting so much bonus material (not to mention organising interviews and artwork for the books - all excellent by the way) to do that something was bound to fall through the cracks.

Eh, as a classical fan I can say classical companies, to give one example, put out much bigger collections all the time..."The Complete Beethoven" on 40 CDs and such...without bad tracks. I'm not unsympathetic to human error, but to say "it was bound to happen" is just not true. It's very possible to put out a 14 CD collection without mistakes

Dazz posted:

As for the different fades and full endings etc...  Who would have a problem with that unless it is a shorter version/edit than  the original. Hearing the full end of "Can't Carry On" was a pleasent surprise although I first heard it on the 5.1 mix. (The surround mix was so different to the stereo with variations a-plenty!).

I'd have a problem with it, in principle (this is all subject to be understanding of the term remastering being completely wrong!). Remastering bringing out detail you've not heard before is one thing, but changing the song in more fundamental ways is completely different. Your assumption seems to be that making the song longer is OK, but shorter is not OK. If I bought a Pet Sounds or Revolver re-issue, I wouldn't expect (or want) God Only Knows to have an extended intro, or I'm Only Sleeping to have an extra chorus. Those become alternative versions, in my eyes. Any argument that it's 'in the spirit' of the re-issues isn't really correct either, in my opinion - the albums should be as they were, alternative versions should be on disc 2.

Possessed7 posted:
Dazz posted:

As for the different fades and full endings etc...  Who would have a problem with that unless it is a shorter version/edit than  the original. Hearing the full end of "Can't Carry On" was a pleasent surprise although I first heard it on the 5.1 mix. (The surround mix was so different to the stereo with variations a-plenty!).

I'd have a problem with it, in principle (this is all subject to be understanding of the term remastering being completely wrong!). Remastering bringing out detail you've not heard before is one thing, but changing the song in more fundamental ways is completely different. Your assumption seems to be that making the song longer is OK, but shorter is not OK. If I bought a Pet Sounds or Revolver re-issue, I wouldn't expect (or want) God Only Knows to have an extended intro, or I'm Only Sleeping to have an extra chorus. Those become alternative versions, in my eyes. Any argument that it's 'in the spirit' of the re-issues isn't really correct either, in my opinion - the albums should be as they were, alternative versions should be on disc 2.

That opens up a can of worms. If I was that pedantic, I would argue that I don't want "I Walk Away" on the first album and I wanted "Can't Carry On" faded out early because that's how I remember it on my original Australian vinyl pressing. Yet I have found out that "Can't Carry On" was NOT faded out early on overseas pressings so which is the 'alternate' version? Depends on what country you bought your albums from I guess. I'm guessing CCO wasn't meant to be faded out but was during that vinyl album's preparation in Australia for reasons lost in the midsts of time. Imagine my surprise when I first heard the full ending on the DVD-A after years of being used to a fade-out.

Since Neil was active in these remasters, he probably chose this time to correct things that may have annoyed him in the past (like the applause at the end of "Together Alone" - he may have thought it was always there and was disappointed to find out it wasn't so he took this time to make sure it went back on as originally intended. I don't know if that happened but I'm using that as a hypothetical).

 

Dazz, I don't think it's being pedantic at all. It is pedantic in instances where its a difference of 1 or 2 seconds, but my comment was that I don't think it should be done, in principle, in any case. In my view, once the album is finished, that's it. I don't think it should be revisited 10, 20 years later and changed, in terms of tracks or length. The Waterboys reissued some albums with extra tracks and extended versions inserted into the original tracklist. The justification was that they couldn't fit on a single LP at the time, but I think that's just the way it goes - if you want to revisit it, it's not a reissue, it's a 'reimagining', it's a director's cut.  That's cool if you don't agree though, each to their own, and it's a 'bonus' for anyone who also has the originals. 

For the record, I'm not bothered at all by these changes, I just think the original version should remain unchanged for anyone hearing it for the first time.

The reissues are being marketed as that - reissues - rather than remasters or re-imaginings. Particularly the vinyls, which are, as far as I know, are in identical sleeves with the only clue that they are re-pressings being in the small print of the copyright information. For that reason I think fiddling with fades etc is a bit dubious - I want the albums as they were. The changes are small, granted, but the additional bit at the end of Together alone I find quite annoying.

Possessed7 posted:

Dazz, I don't think it's being pedantic at all. It is pedantic in instances where its a difference of 1 or 2 seconds, but my comment was that I don't think it should be done, in principle, in any case. In my view, once the album is finished, that's it. I don't think it should be revisited 10, 20 years later and changed, in terms of tracks or length. The Waterboys reissued some albums with extra tracks and extended versions inserted into the original tracklist. The justification was that they couldn't fit on a single LP at the time, but I think that's just the way it goes - if you want to revisit it, it's not a reissue, it's a 'reimagining', it's a director's cut.  That's cool if you don't agree though, each to their own, and it's a 'bonus' for anyone who also has the originals. 

For the record, I'm not bothered at all by these changes, I just think the original version should remain unchanged for anyone hearing it for the first time.

I agree in principle, but in the case of the debut album, things are a little tricky: is the original Australian LP/CD (with shorter Can't Carry On and no I Walk Away) the original, or is it the American LP with I Walk Away (and a longer Can't Carry On on the CD)?

While CH were based in Australia, they were signed to an American record company and recorded the album in the States. On that basis, it could be argued that the American edition is the original and the Australian issue was just a local variant that took account of the fact that I Walk Away had previously been recorded/issued by Split Enz.

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