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When Tim joined Crowded House for the "Woodface" album was it for a permanent seat in the band (of course we all know that it ended up on being the case) or was it always meant to be a one-off job to perform the songs he composed with Neil for the ill-fated Finn album with Crowded House?

I've never come across any material the sheds light on this one way or another.

Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated!
Original Post
I read in an interview with Nick Seymour that Tim was supposed to be a full member, like Mark Hart became some time later. Nick also said that he would have been more comfortable if Tim had been a one-off guest for the Woodface album (and tour).
At some point Neil and Tim were doing almost everything while recording Woodface, at some point replacing Paul Hester by a different drummer, Ricky Fataar.

I can't remember from which source this was, I think it was a interview from 1996... (mojo magazine?)
quote:
Originally posted by Guy:
[qb] I read in an interview with Nick Seymour that Tim was supposed to be a full member, like Mark Hart became some time later. Nick also said that he would have been more comfortable if Tim had been a one-off guest for the Woodface album (and tour).
At some point Neil and Tim were doing almost everything while recording Woodface, at some point replacing Paul Hester by a different drummer, Ricky Fataar.

I can't remember from which source this was, I think it was a interview from 1996... (mojo magazine?) [/qb]
Hi Guy.

I remember reading what sounds like the same article. I must admit that I've really gone off Nick as a person. In that article he said some pretty off things about Tim, like how he didn't even like most of Tim's solo music. How he didn't see why Tim had to join the band and couldn't just guest on the album.

Nick seemed to like Tim's music just fine when Weather With You and Woodface Became CH's first single and album to make it big in the UK. Talk about ungrateful and being a hypocrite.

Nick's also said lots about Neil and how CH broke up and he's obviously the most bitter about it.

Ricky didn't replace Paul on WWY. Ricky played drums on it before it became a CH song. Ricky also drummed on All I Ask and There Goes God.
quote:
I must admit that I've really gone off Nick as a person. In that article he said some pretty off things about Tim, like how he didn't even like most of Tim's solo music. How he didn't see why Tim had to join the band and couldn't just guest on the album.
I'll have to disagree with you there. I don't have a problem with Nick's comments; I'm glad he could be truthful. After all, it was his band. Wasn't he fired (temporarily) before Woodface? If so, considering he was also the only non-Enz member of CH, I can see why he'd be a little insecure and/or territorial. It seems most of his bitterness comes from a lack of control in the group (including its end). I can't blame him for feeling that way.

WRT Tim's music, I'd also have to side with Nick. I love some of Tim's music, but there's quite a lot I don't like. OTOH, Neil's never written a song I don't like (well, not since he formed CH).
quote:
Originally posted by lavar78:
[qb]
quote:
I must admit that I've really gone off Nick as a person. In that article he said some pretty off things about Tim, like how he didn't even like most of Tim's solo music. How he didn't see why Tim had to join the band and couldn't just guest on the album.
I'll have to disagree with you there. I don't have a problem with Nick's comments; I'm glad he could be truthful. After all, it was his band. Wasn't he fired (temporarily) before Woodface? If so, considering he was also the only non-Enz member of CH, I can see why he'd be a little insecure and/or territorial. It seems most of his bitterness comes from a lack of control in the group (including its end). I can't blame him for feeling that way.

WRT Tim's music, I'd also have to side with Nick. I love some of Tim's music, but there's quite a lot I don't like. OTOH, Neil's never written a song I don't like (well, not since he formed CH). [/qb]
Well it's pretty easy for most people to be truthful and still be tactful. Sadly thats not an artform that Nick has mastered.

I'll have to disagree that CH was even partly Nicks band. Neil was always in total control. He hired Nick, fired Nick for a time, and only when Neil felt ready did he invite Nick back. When Tim joined, Nick and Paul didn't get a say in it, they were just told by Neil. CH breaking up wasn't a band decision, Neil just decided that was it and told the others.

Paul, Tim and even Mark were at least songwriters in their own right and all contributed to the writing and the bands overall sound. Nick was an exceptionally average bass player who in the bands eleven year career only co-wrote Recurring Dream way back in 85' and a couple of co-writes on TA.

By the way, how and why did Nick get a writing credit for Catherine Wheels. I'm sorry but adding a brief instrumental section at the end of a song shouldn't earn someone a co-write. It's a Neil and Tim's song, thats it.

Interesting point about Nick maybe feeling left out because he wasn't an ex enzer. To be honest, if I could choose between replacing Nick or Tim from CH, I'd pick Nick to go in a heart beat.

I'd also rate Bones Hillman, Mike Chunn and Nigel Griggs above Nick as bassists.

Nick's criticisms of Tim's music would carry more weight if Nick had ever written a song by himself. Instead of just riding the skirt tails of people like Neil and his brother Mark Seymour. With Marks songwriting and musical skills it'shard to beleive that ne and Nick are from the same gene pool.
quote:
I'll have to disagree that CH was even partly Nicks band. Neil was always in total control. He hired Nick, fired Nick for a time, and only when Neil felt ready did he invite Nick back. When Tim joined, Nick and Paul didn't get a say in it, they were just told by Neil. CH breaking up wasn't a band decision, Neil just decided that was it and told the others.
Don't you think that might not sit well with Nick? I agree with you in theory, but the truth of the matter is that it was Nick's band (as well as Paul's and Neil's). Neil was the unquestioned leader, but both Nick and Paul brought special things to the group besides technical prowess. Nick isn't the best bass player ever, but CH without Nick is definitely missing something -- especially on stage. The chemistry between the original three (both good and not-so-good) was a major part of CH. It's only human nature to resent someone coming in to your group and immediately having more power than you'll ever have. I agree that Nick isn't the most tactful guy, but I'd hardly call him a bad person for having some critical things to say.
quote:
Nick's criticisms of Tim's music would carry more weight if Nick had ever written a song by himself. Instead of just riding the skirt tails of people like Neil and his brother Mark Seymour. With Marks songwriting and musical skills it'shard to beleive that ne and Nick are from the same gene pool.
I vehemently disagree that one has to be a songwriter to know good songwriting (or, more appropriately, songwriting that he likes). Nick certainly knows enough about music.

As far as "Catherine Wheels" goes, the bottom line is that Nick did get a songwriting credit. I love the instrumental section (as well as the one in "Hole In The River"). I don't think Neil is the kind of guy to give out undeserved songwriting credits -- particularly to Nick.

I think you're being too hard on Nick. In the history of CH, Nick is the only member (besides Mark) who didn't give up on the group. Tim and Paul both left mid-tour. Neil dissolved the band. Nick's been there the whole time, he earned his right to have an opinion, and, IMO, he's a more integral part of CH than Tim or Mark ever were.
quote:
Originally posted by lavar78:
[qb]I think you're being too hard on Nick. In the history of CH, Nick is the only member (besides Mark) who didn't give up on the group. Tim and Paul both left mid-tour. Neil dissolved the band. Nick's been there the whole time, he earned his right to have an opinion, and, IMO, he's a more integral part of CH than Tim or Mark ever were. [/qb]
Of course Nick stayed in CH for as long as he could. To put it bluntly, Neil was his meal ticket.

Look at what everyone else has done since the crowdies broke up:

Tim's continued making great solo records and made that brilliant live album with Dave Dobbyn and Bic Runga. That tour was also the highest grossing tour in the history of NZ by both international and national acts.

Neil's established a highly acclaimed solo career, did that beautiful soundtrack to Rain and made a live album & DVD with members of The Smiths, Radiohead and Pearl Jam.

Mark Hart returned briefly to Supertramp and recorded his first solo album Nada Sonata.

Paul Hester recorded two EP's with Largest Living Things, had his own TV show "Hessies Shed" for two seasons and is putting the finishing touches as we speak to his first solo album.

And wheres Nick? The only thing I've heard was that he was laying down some bass tracks for an Andy White album. I wonder if Nick's forgotten about the ALT album?
Forgive the off topic, but I'll step up and defend free speech-

I'll agree with Mona here that this is not about bashing Nick. It's not even about what any member has done recently, although I'm sure Peter has covered Nick's activities far more than listed within this thread.

Because Nick had put 4 years of his life in to CH before Tim briefly entered the band, I would sure as hell hope he could say whatever he felt about the band. I don't blame him at all. He just spoke his mind. No crime there. About Nick's criticisms of Tim's music - it's just a matter of his personal opinion. We all have one, and we all don't need to write songs to voice it.

Tim's contributions were obviously very valuable to Woodface, and if you can get your hands on a copy of the Something So Strong book, it sheds light on why Tim joined, and why he left. If my memory serves me correctly, neither had anything to do with Nick whatsoever.
quote:
Originally posted by geddy:
[qb]if you can get your hands on a copy of the Something So Strong book, it sheds light on why Tim joined, and why he left. If my memory serves me correctly, neither had anything to do with Nick whatsoever. [/qb]
I never thought or said that Tim left the crowdies because of Nick. I was just commenting on the Nick interview that Guy mentioned afew posts back.

Awamutu, I wasn't trying to turn this into Nick bashing thread. Nor do I begrudge him the right to his opinion. But hes said some really bitter, nasty things.

In one interview hes saying he wishes Neil hadn't broken up the band because he felt they had at least one more great album in them. then about a month later hes talking to another journalist saying that CH only recorded three good or average songs and the rest were ****. Make up your mind mate?
As the CH turns, on this weeks episode...
It would be so boring if there weren't some hard feelings, bitterness, and he said she said.

Debating who contributed the most is missing the point! Part of what made CH so great was their collective charm and humour, the three of them together.

Nick and Paul contibuted extensively to CH's flambouyant personality. They seemed to bring out the best in Neil, and each other.

It wasn't just the music, it was the whole package that made CH so fab.
'Water Will Boil' - Pg. 219/220 from "Something So Strong"

11-5-91 Crowded House/Tim Finn press release -

By mutual agreement both parties have decided to go their own ways. It also states that both parites had been seperate entities prior to Woodface. It says that a 4 piece ensemble proved to be to restrictive. But that the Finn Bros. will work together again.

There's also a hurried interview, done the next day, with N.Z. journalist, Diana Balham, for 'Woman's Day' done in Dublin -

Neil states that he and Tim had written so many songs together at the time, that C.H. seemed the best vehicle for them. All was good in context, but that Tim could not handle a secondary role on tour and quite frankly wasn't performing at his best. Neil also goes on to say that the band was sucessful for 5 years prior to Tim's cameo.

I'm sure that the Byron Bay 8/13/92 punch from Neil to Tim's temple didn't help matters either.

That's on page 208! A must read!!
just thought i would have my say on the nick seymour debate, i think all of you who are giving nick a hard time, should remember crowded house were up until the woodface release, neil, nick and paul, as the old saying goes, if it aint broke, dont fix it,not taking anything away from tims input to woodface, i,m sure without him woodface may not of been the classic it is, but also it might of been?? as someone previously mentioned it may of nicks insecurities causing him to worry about his part in crowded house once tim joined, up until then crowded house were a tight unit, whose shows were great again not just for the music but for the onstage banter... between the three of them, i guess nick was used to the house as a threesome, he certainly does not deserve the slating he appears to be getting off some so called fans, you should be ashamed of yourselves and hang your heads in shame, you know who you are?
I must say I'm a bit sorry that this thread has re-surfaced. I don't know if you noticed but the posts against Nick were written in 2003 when CH were no more and not remotely likely to re-surface.
While I disagree with some of the sentiments expressed about Nick (I believe he and Tim get a fair amount of claptrap thrown at them whenever this story raises it's ugly head), I must say people on this forum do have a right to their opinions and I don't think they should be ashamed of themselves for expressing them.
We may not always agree with each other and sometimes some people can go pretty far when they have something to say - let's remember, Crowded House have a long, long history of ups and downs and fights and make-ups. Every one will have their opinions on this history and sometimes it's just not worth it to bring it all up again.
i am in no uncertain terms saying people dont have a right to express they,re opinions, however when they begin to say he,s a crap bass player, and questioning what he,s done since the house split is as far as i,m concerned a tad much, i didnt notice the dates until it was too late,however i hope this will be an end to all of anti nick, lets get behind the band and all its members, and get them back high in the charts again, Big Grin where they belong
I mjst say, this anti-Nick fervor shocks me from this group. So what if Nick wasn't familiar with Tim's solo work? Just because Tim is Neil's brother, and Nick was in a band with Neil, does that make Nick obligated to know the Tim Finn discography? That's ridiculous. And, regardless of Nick's "average" bass playing, or his lack of songwriting skills, or his failure to make an attempt at a solo career, Neil seems to want to play with him. Isn't that enough? If you had a journalist asking you questions every third day, you'd probably come up with some pretty contradictory stuff, too, depending on your mood - and I bet you could find interviews where Neil says he's written two good songs, and the rest are garbage. Do you think he feels that way every day? Of course not. Lastly, Tim in CH was a huge, huge mistake; I've always though Neil did it because he felt guilty for being more successful than Tim. Yes, Tim co-wrote some great songs on "Woodface", but that didn't require him to go out on tour with them. (And, lest anyone misunderstand how things work, Nick Seymour got no royalties from the sales of "Weather With You" or "Four Seasons..", so you can axe that bit about Nick enjoying the fruits of Tim's labors.) Tim solo is fine; Tim with Neil is spotty at best, and I mean that all the way back to Split Enz. Neil and Nick...whatever you think of Nick, and however indefinable Nick's contribution may be, there's something about that combination that works. Always has, always will.
Kind of a sad thread. Relationships all have their ups and downs ... I'm content thinking about how much joy the band's music has brought me over the years and how much fun I've had at the concerts I've attended. Every member past and present has made a contribution to help make Crowded House what it is today. And after all these years (and all the life changes I've had since first discovering Crowded House in college), the fact that I'm counting down the days to when I get to see the band again (74!) says something in my book.
Wowee, pass the popcorn please! Talk about drama! I never knew this back story since I hardly read any interviews with CH 10 years ago and didn't even know at the time there were biographies written about the band.

I agree that relationships all have their ups and downs, but, like it or not, entertainers are in the public eye and issues like this do get scrutinized. Everyone's entitled to their opinion (I'll be the first to make that claim!), but this is in the past and I think we can all agree that CH would not be what it was or what it is without Nick -- or Tim's influence on the Woodface album.
I really can't see how this thread has become so volatile!

Tim did great things for the band by contributing to the Woodface album, but it's almost universally agreed among the members of Crowded House, that he didn't really fit into the live band, nor did he feel comfortable. It's not so much a slur on Tim, as a recognition that Tim is a very different, unique solo artist.

Secondly, as discussed on another thread a couple of months ago, Nick is a wonderful bass player with his own distinctive style - a real pro, and a crucial contributor to the character of the band. He's also a fine visual artist.

I agree with Caryn, most bands have tension and fallouts through the years. However, it's clear to me that there is very little animosity between the band members these days.

-Tom
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
I mjst say, this anti-Nick fervor shocks me from this group. So what if Nick wasn't familiar with Tim's solo work? Just because Tim is Neil's brother, and Nick was in a band with Neil, does that make Nick obligated to know the Tim Finn discography? That's ridiculous. And, regardless of Nick's "average" bass playing, or his lack of songwriting skills, or his failure to make an attempt at a solo career, Neil seems to want to play with him. Isn't that enough? If you had a journalist asking you questions every third day, you'd probably come up with some pretty contradictory stuff, too, depending on your mood - and I bet you could find interviews where Neil says he's written two good songs, and the rest are garbage. Do you think he feels that way every day? Of course not. Lastly, Tim in CH was a huge, huge mistake; I've always though Neil did it because he felt guilty for being more successful than Tim. Yes, Tim co-wrote some great songs on "Woodface", but that didn't require him to go out on tour with them. (And, lest anyone misunderstand how things work, Nick Seymour got no royalties from the sales of "Weather With You" or "Four Seasons..", so you can axe that bit about Nick enjoying the fruits of Tim's labors.) Tim solo is fine; Tim with Neil is spotty at best, and I mean that all the way back to Split Enz. Neil and Nick...whatever you think of Nick, and however indefinable Nick's contribution may be, there's something about that combination that works. Always has, always will.


spot on mate - neil obviously thinks nicks a good musician - and for the record,i do too.

hey jeremy loder - you don't like nick much do you ! Confused Eeker Red Face and your'e supposed to be a crowded house fan ,and yet you would rather have bones hilman uncle tom cobley and all playing bass instead of nick.well i've got news for you buddy - nick has played bass on every crowdies album,so that makes him an integral part of ch.

i'm also a beatles fan and i hate it when people say crap like john was great paul was
rubbish and ringo contributed nothing.great bands are great because of the contributions of all their members - and crowded house are a GREAT band - get my point? Wink

jeez,ive waited ten years for this band to come back, and someone comes on slagging nick.ok , so he made a few negative comments about tim's stuff and the crowdies output once upon a long ago.as much as i love neil - i reckon nick had good reason to feel any bitterness that he may have felt at the time.have you never bitched about someone that you both love and respect before because you felt hard done by.you must be a better man than me,because i know i have.give nick a break Roll Eyes

hey the crowdies are back - neil,NICK,mark (and matt) - feel happy. Big Grin
Please someone make this topic go away! ADMIN you can do-it. This should be a happy time. We have or I have my favorite band back I thought that would never happen.I would like also to state I was drawn to Crowded house NOT the enz and I had limited knowledge of Tim Finn untill he joined Crowded House for that brief period of time. and one of the things my friend and I would comment about was how great and unique the bass playing was in crowded house and thats why back when they were first out nick was voted best bassist in a rolling stone poll. He is awesome in my book!!!

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