quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
Add All I Ask to your first two, and you have my least favorite songs on Woodface. To call those songs disposable is to be overly kind. That's what ultimately leaves Woodface toward the bottom of my CH album favorites list; too many substandard (by Neil Finn standards, anyway) songs.


So did you fall out of a Tall Tree as a child? Wink Adidasman, or were you attacked by a Hippy (with a weekly wage)? Wink

Tall Trees and Fames is are to use a phrase you are rather fond of "good little pop songs", nothing earth shattering (I know) but then not all songs are written to be as durable as I feel Possessed, Whispers and moans, or Fingers of Love.

However, what they do have is energy, intensity and to some degree wit, they are a quick dose of musical caffeine in between more substantial tracks that give the album pace.

So why use the word "substandard", why not just admit that these songs don't work for you and explain why?

On the plus side I do agree with you about All I ask, that one doesn't fit into the album at all.

In fact I would go further and suggest the running of the last 5 tracks on Woodface does not work too well and that All I ask should have been an Afterglow track and Fame is could have been moved further down the running order to stop that latter tracks from dragging.
Woodface is too long. That's its biggest problem. Too many songs. As for Tall Trees, it's not a bad song; it's just not a good song when measured against a typical midrange CH song. (I'd say a song like Tombstone or Catherine Wheels or She Called Up would fall into the "midrange" category for me.) And Fame Is sounds like the best Squeeze song ever - which would be great if Woodface were a Squeeze album. It's not, though. (I do like the lyric about a hippie and his weekly wage, though.)
I agree that it is too long. And they would have done well to take off a couple of songs and include the deleted Afterglow ones. It would have made for a fantastic 4 star cd.
Yeah, I always think Woodface is too long until I start deciding what to cut. My least favorite tracks are "Chocolate Cake" and "Weather With You," but I think the album needs both of them. The others you can pry from my cold, dead hands. Yes, even "All I Ask." I love that song. Man, when the harmonies come in at the end... it's just touching. Great vocal by Tim.
I am interested in the debate about Woodface. I dont think it is a CH album but the first Finn Brothers record. Yeah I know there are five Neil solo songs but it is not unprecedented in the Brothers project for solo authored songs to appear. And it could probably have had a couple of songs culled - Italian Plastic, Fame Is and
As Sure As I Am perhaps? Dont get why many people dislike Tall Trees - moves along at a clip and nice melody.

So having estalbished the status of Woodface I can say without hesitation that I think that Together Alone is the best Crowdies album. The later work has some highlights but this album was a magnificant place to finish as it is un toppable IMHO.

Woodface was a good place for the brothers to start. Tim brings a greater level of pop sensisbility , diversity in song style and humour/satire to Neils work. Its a wonderful album that can have beautiful sensitive songs like FAYF and WAM and then a beautifully off kilter satire like Chocolate Cake and a pop gem like WWY (which I too get sick of at times but all bands tend to play their majour hits live and this is by far the biggest CH song in UK, Europe and many other places).

If you listen to Finn after Woodface you get a real sense of the brothers diversity but always underpinned by great melody.

I realize many people wish Tim had never been involved with CH but it is worth remembering that Neil presented the third CH album to the record company and they rejected it (whether this was reasonable is another question). It is gnereous of Tim to allow the songs he and Neil had written for a brothers project to be recorded by CH and also worth remembering that WWY basically broke the band in Europe/UK and became thier largest hit in Australasia as well. So whilst Tim tenure was brief his contribution was great!Neil is always at pains to acknowlede this.
Their biggest hit in Australasia is "Better Be Home Soon." I always thought it was cool the band enjoyed its greatest success in different parts of the world with different singles from different albums.
quote:
Originally posted by titus:
Woodface was a good place for the brothers to start. Tim brings a greater level of pop sensisbility , diversity in song style and humour/satire to Neils work... I realize many people wish Tim had never been involved with CH but it is worth remembering that Neil presented the third CH album to the record company and they rejected it (whether this was reasonable is another question). It is gnereous of Tim to allow the songs he and Neil had written for a brothers project to be recorded by CH and also worth remembering that WWY basically broke the band in Europe/UK and became thier largest hit in Australasia as well. So whilst Tim tenure was brief his contribution was great!Neil is always at pains to acknowlede this.
Boy, I don't agree with a lot of this. If Tim brought "a greater level of pop sensibility" to CH, why were Neil's songs with Split Enz bigger hits than Tim's? And I don't recall the third CH album being rejected completely by Capitol; they asked for a single. Neil was, based on what he says in SSS, freaking out and Tim suggested merging the Finn Bros. stuff with the CH record. And, of course, Tim's "generosity" was also of great benefit to him, as he made a lot more in royalties from having his songs on a Crowded House album than he ever would have made from a solo album or a Finn Bros. release. I'm not saying what he brought to Woodface wasn't valuable - but it would have been a great record (check the original song list for proof) with or without Tim's involvement. I think Tim's a talent, and I like much of his solo stuff, but he's not Neil. Not even close.
A reason for not liking Woodface should not be based on the amount of tracks it contains. Sure, there are better songs than others on that album, but I think that if certain songs were scratched from that album (eg tall trees or chocolate cake) and were not officially released until later on, people would probably appreciate then a whole lot more.
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
quote:
Originally posted by titus:
Woodface was a good place for the brothers to start. Tim brings a greater level of pop sensisbility , diversity in song style and humour/satire to Neils work... I realize many people wish Tim had never been involved with CH but it is worth remembering that Neil presented the third CH album to the record company and they rejected it (whether this was reasonable is another question). It is gnereous of Tim to allow the songs he and Neil had written for a brothers project to be recorded by CH and also worth remembering that WWY basically broke the band in Europe/UK and became thier largest hit in Australasia as well. So whilst Tim tenure was brief his contribution was great!Neil is always at pains to acknowlede this.
Boy, I don't agree with a lot of this. If Tim brought "a greater level of pop sensibility" to CH, why were Neil's songs with Split Enz bigger hits than Tim's? And I don't recall the third CH album being rejected completely by Capitol; they asked for a single. Neil was, based on what he says in SSS, freaking out and Tim suggested merging the Finn Bros. stuff with the CH record. And, of course, Tim's "generosity" was also of great benefit to him, as he made a lot more in royalties from having his songs on a Crowded House album than he ever would have made from a solo album or a Finn Bros. release. I'm not saying what he brought to Woodface wasn't valuable - but it would have been a great record (check the original song list for proof) with or without Tim's involvement. I think Tim's a talent, and I like much of his solo stuff, but he's not Neil. Not even close.


Pretty much agree with this completley.
quote:
Originally posted by Kazzie:
Oh, is this forum back to being a contest is it?
How sad.
I have no intention of making this into any kind of contest. I was just disagreeing with what another poster said about what Tim brought to Woodface. Certainly, Woodface would have been very different if it had been a pure CH album; Tim's contributions made a major impact on the record. That impact was not negative in most respects, at least from my perspective. (I think it would have been an equally great record as it was originally presented to Capitol, though.) But I happen to think it was a bad idea to have Tim in the band, and not because he's a bad writer or singer; I just don't think he fit (most fans who saw the band live with Tim would attest to that), and I have never thought he was a good influence on Neil. I personally don't like the humor, satire, or musical frivolity that Tim injects into the songs he and Neil write together. And he needs to be the front man; he just can't help himself. But I am not trying to turn this thread into another "who's better?" thing; that's totally subjective. But I don't think Woodface needed Tim, or the Finn Bros. songs, as much as some seem to think it did.
I think Kazzie's post may have been in regards to my'score' comment,which does sound a tad like a 'contest' [sorry] It was lazy typing.
quote:
Originally posted by thepearls42:
I think Kazzie's post may have been in regards to my'score' comment,which does sound a tad like a 'contest' [sorry] It was lazy typing.
It was an understandable choice of words. It just goes with the adidasman moniker, dunnit? Wink And I have, on occasion, been known to pit the Finns against one another unnecessarily, so that may have been part of what prompted Kazzie's comment as well. My reputation once again comes back to haunt me...
Oh dear! I had not in my original response hoped to start a another Neil v Tim thing. For what its worth I am happy for people to have personal preferences either way. For myself I love and adore each of their work, they are both legends and they have both enjoyed considerable artistic and commercial success. In terms of the latter there is no doubt Neil has sold more CDs etc than Tim. Having said that most musicians would give their back teeth to have sold as much as either.

But I digress. My intention in posting was to say that I think TA is CHs best album full stop. Part of my argument is that I consider Woodface to be a CH album in name only - it is really, for me, the first brothers album. I also think, for that matter, that TOE is a CH album in name only - it is substantially a Neil Finn solo album.

I did say Tim brought a greater pop sensibility to Woodface which should not be confused with greater pop/commercial success. Clearly Neil can write hit singles as adidasman accurately points out. I meant that Tim bought a certain kind of classic pop writing and he frequently describe himself as a 'classicist.' What that meant is that Woodface contained a number of songs that were boppy, hook laden and relatively short like WWY, ION etc. Whether people like that or not is totally up to them but I didnt hear this type of song on TOLM or TA. The humour/satire is a bonus too for me as its sophisticated and provides variety. I assume that musical frivolity refers to what I would call quirky,even discordant. I like that too and Neil has been known to do it himself - eg. Sister Madly, Transit Lounge etc.

Whether the original 3rd Crowded House album would of been as good as Woodface is debatable. I have heard all the tracks from that record apart from 'Fields Are Full Of Your Kind' and I am afraid I can't agree with adidasman - there are some good songs but it would have compared very unfavourably with CH, TOLM or TA. So what a great idea to put two things together - the best songs from that album and a great batch of songs from the brothers collaboration. End result great album which broke massive new territory for the band. Did Tim fit? No. Did Tim benefit? Yes Did Neil and CH benefit? Yes Did the listening public benefit? Yes!! Everyone is a winner.

As I have said I consider TA to be Neils masterpiece and by definition CHs. But at least in Australia in terms of public perception Woodface is the classic. (Witness recent ABC series of classic Australian albums). Both Neil and Tim wrote it and therefore both should receive credit. They bought different things - something are quirky as Chocolate Cake and something as stunningly beautiful as FAYF to highlight a couple.

I have no idea what is meant by Tim being a 'bad influence' on Neil. Is this about the famous LSD advice or about music? As far as I can see their work together in SE, CH and Brothers stuff has produced some of my favourite music ever and they have both been able to produce great work seperately as well. As a side note I always wonder why we dont talk more about the first CH album. In terms of CH being huge and selling lots of stuff that was the one that sealed the deal and interstingly enough it is probably, after Woodface, the most pop orientated CH album. Perhaps the fans like us are not necessarily in sync with the record buying public. Anyway that another thread altogether.
The CH album is my fav [at the moment] But as far as sealing the deal, it sort of didn't in London!Sometimes its just about 'single'choices for the slightly narrow minded masses.But thats their loss!
I agree. I think that album was the one that went ballistic in the US on the back of the 'Hey Now Hey Now' single.

I always remember when I first heard it - so fresh and immediate and to this day I have never heard Neil sing on any other recording with such gusto.

Your right in observing that the fanz get heaps more exposure to the treasures involved in other albums and beyond the singles.
Why cant people just stick to saying what you like about something? Why is the internet full of people saying what they dont like?

Personally I have always loved Tims backing vocals on Woodface and more often than not end up singing along to them...
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
Why cant people just stick to saying what you like about something? Why is the internet full of people saying what they dont like?

Personally I have always loved Tims backing vocals on Woodface and more often than not end up singing along to them...
I said nothing about not liking Tim, or not liking his vocals, or whatever. I didn't think he fit well in CH, and a lot of people - Tim and Neil, for example - seem to have come to that same conclusion. So what's the big deal? I think Woodface is a fine, albeit overly long and uneven, record, and I think Tim's contributions are, in general, excellent. There - positive enough? We can't just go on and on about everything we adore about the Finns and CH and never bring up things we aren't thrilled with; that'd make for some pretty boring, short-lived banter. "Oh, yeah! And I just LOVE it when Tim does that crooning lounge singer thing like he does on All I Ask!!! It's so retro and cool and wonderful!!!" Dull, dull, dull.
I don't think Woodface is too long.I do however thing the running order is poorly done in places.Tall trees into Weather with you is great,but the last 5 tracks are all slow to mid tempo,and they should have been mixed up a bit throughout the album.I would have had:
1.It's Only Natural
2.Tall trees
3.Weather with you
4.Fall at your feet
5.Whispers and Moans
6.Choclate cake
7.She Goes on
8.Four Seasons in One day
9.Italian Plastic
10.There goes god
11.As sure as i am
12.All I ask
13.Fame Is
14.How will you go
quote:
Originally posted by stuartjb:
I don't think Woodface is too long.I do however thing the running order is poorly done in places.Tall trees into Weather with you is great,but the last 5 tracks are all slow to mid tempo,and they should have been mixed up a bit throughout the album.I would have had:
1.It's Only Natural
2.Tall trees
3.Weather with you
4.Fall at your feet
5.Whispers and Moans
6.Choclate cake
7.She Goes on
8.Four Seasons in One day
9.Italian Plastic
10.There goes god
11.As sure as i am
12.All I ask
13.Fame Is
14.How will you go


Nice. Looking through your alternate track listing and imagining it, I really like it a lot.

I think making Chocolate Cake the first track was as big of a mistake by the band (or whoever is responsible), if not more so, than making it the lead single. I don't dislike the song and it has its place in the CH canon, but it belongs in the middle as a novelty album track - maybe even closer to the end, like Transit Lounge, which was that album's novelty track - so that's what first stuck out as a good idea. Then, following it with She Goes On is a brilliant choice. SGO would come across as even more disarmingly beautiful after the crassness of CC.

When the tracks are arranged this way, I'm less tempted to cut tracks, but I would still nix All I Ask. Not because it's a bad song - I love the Sinatra-esque string arrangement, just as I like You're the One to Make Me Cry for the same reason. But the album is still too long and that's the most obvious song to let go of, in my view. Eliminating that song, and using this track listing, would make Woodface an even better album by a fair margin, I think.

Well done.
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
Why cant people just stick to saying what you like about something? Why is the internet full of people saying what they dont like?

Personally I have always loved Tims backing vocals on Woodface and more often than not end up singing along to them...
I said nothing about not liking Tim, or not liking his vocals, or whatever. I didn't think he fit well in CH, and a lot of people - Tim and Neil, for example - seem to have come to that same conclusion. So what's the big deal? I think Woodface is a fine, albeit overly long and uneven, record, and I think Tim's contributions are, in general, excellent. There - positive enough? We can't just go on and on about everything we adore about the Finns and CH and never bring up things we aren't thrilled with; that'd make for some pretty boring, short-lived banter. "Oh, yeah! And I just LOVE it when Tim does that crooning lounge singer thing like he does on All I Ask!!! It's so retro and cool and wonderful!!!" Dull, dull, dull.


Again, you missed the point. I wasnt refering to your posts, or anyones posts. I was simply celebrating what I liked about an album. (rather than forcing my opinions down peoples throats, or berrating people until they agree with me)

I think some folk on here need to step back a bit, breath deeply and think before they post.

In the words of a great man "I dont prentend to know what you want, but I offer love..."

:-)
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
Why cant people just stick to saying what you like about something? Why is the internet full of people saying what they dont like?

Personally I have always loved Tims backing vocals on Woodface and more often than not end up singing along to them...
I said nothing about not liking Tim, or not liking his vocals, or whatever. I didn't think he fit well in CH, and a lot of people - Tim and Neil, for example - seem to have come to that same conclusion. So what's the big deal? I think Woodface is a fine, albeit overly long and uneven, record, and I think Tim's contributions are, in general, excellent. There - positive enough? We can't just go on and on about everything we adore about the Finns and CH and never bring up things we aren't thrilled with; that'd make for some pretty boring, short-lived banter. "Oh, yeah! And I just LOVE it when Tim does that crooning lounge singer thing like he does on All I Ask!!! It's so retro and cool and wonderful!!!" Dull, dull, dull.


Again, you missed the point. I wasnt refering to your posts, or anyones posts. I was simply celebrating what I liked about an album. (rather than forcing my opinions down peoples throats, or berrating people until they agree with me)

I think some folk on here need to step back a bit, breath deeply and think before they post.

In the words of a great man "I dont prentend to know what you want, but I offer love..."

:-)
And I think you need to recognize that not everyone shares your point of view, and that, if you're going to post something, you shouldn't bother trying to instruct people on how you'd like them to respond. Sounds a bit like "forcing (your) opinions down peoples' throats," eh? I can assure you that I always think before I post (not that I'm certain that your comment was aimed at me); some other posters may not like what my thoughts have produced, while others seem to. That's the beauty of this forum. We often disagree vehemently, but we typically get on pretty well in the end.
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:

And I think you need to recognize that not everyone shares your point of view, and that, if you're going to post something, you shouldn't bother trying to instruct people on how you'd like them to respond.


I rest my case...

I find It difficult to respect someone who doesnt take his own advice...
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:

And I think you need to recognize that not everyone shares your point of view, and that, if you're going to post something, you shouldn't bother trying to instruct people on how you'd like them to respond.


I rest my case...

I find It difficult to respect someone who doesnt take his own advice...
I don't tell people how they should respond to my posts. I put them out there, I offer my opinion, and people can say what they like. I go too far at times, I know, but I try to not get heavy-handed about my opinion being better or smarter than someone else's. What you seemed to be saying was that, since your post was in the spirit of "I really love Woodface, and I want to celebrate that" - which is lovely - you only wanted people to respond in kind. You didn't want anyone to say, "Yeah, I like it a lot, but..." Trust me, I understand very well that not everyone shares my point of view. I'm very glad of that, actually; a bunch of adidasmen wouldn't make for a terribly interesting conversation, even to me. So what are you trying to say here? What is it about my own advice that I'm not adhering to? You seem to want it both ways; you want to be nice and not point fingers, but then you toss in enough barbs to get your point across obliquely. I just want to understand what it is you're getting at here.
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:

And I think you need to recognize that not everyone shares your point of view, and that, if you're going to post something, you shouldn't bother trying to instruct people on how you'd like them to respond.


I rest my case...

I find It difficult to respect someone who doesnt take his own advice...
I don't tell people how they should respond to my posts. I put them out there, I offer my opinion, and people can say what they like. I go too far at times, I know, but I try to not get heavy-handed about my opinion being better or smarter than someone else's. What you seemed to be saying was that, since your post was in the spirit of "I really love Woodface, and I want to celebrate that" - which is lovely - you only wanted people to respond in kind. You didn't want anyone to say, "Yeah, I like it a lot, but..." Trust me, I understand very well that not everyone shares my point of view. I'm very glad of that, actually; a bunch of adidasmen wouldn't make for a terribly interesting conversation, even to me. So what are you trying to say here? What is it about my own advice that I'm not adhering to? You seem to want it both ways; you want to be nice and not point fingers, but then you toss in enough barbs to get your point across obliquely. I just want to understand what it is you're getting at here.


Apologies... its just all got so negative on here at the moment, I didnt expect an argument about stuff, I thought I could say I liked Tims voice on Woodface and that would be it...
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:

And I think you need to recognize that not everyone shares your point of view, and that, if you're going to post something, you shouldn't bother trying to instruct people on how you'd like them to respond.


I rest my case...

I find It difficult to respect someone who doesnt take his own advice...
I don't tell people how they should respond to my posts. I put them out there, I offer my opinion, and people can say what they like. I go too far at times, I know, but I try to not get heavy-handed about my opinion being better or smarter than someone else's. What you seemed to be saying was that, since your post was in the spirit of "I really love Woodface, and I want to celebrate that" - which is lovely - you only wanted people to respond in kind. You didn't want anyone to say, "Yeah, I like it a lot, but..." Trust me, I understand very well that not everyone shares my point of view. I'm very glad of that, actually; a bunch of adidasmen wouldn't make for a terribly interesting conversation, even to me. So what are you trying to say here? What is it about my own advice that I'm not adhering to? You seem to want it both ways; you want to be nice and not point fingers, but then you toss in enough barbs to get your point across obliquely. I just want to understand what it is you're getting at here.


Apologies... its just all got so negative on here at the moment, I didnt expect an argument about stuff, I thought I could say I liked Tims voice on Woodface and that would be it...
"It's not an argument! It's contradiction!!!" "No, it's not!" "Yes, it is!!!" Wink
Well, I love Woodface. I didn't like TOLM when it came out in 1988, and I was ready to write the band off in 1991 when I listened to Woodface in one of those early 90's "headphone tryout things" in the record store. I thought it sounded so good that I bought the cassette tape immediately and listened to it obsessively. To this day, it remains my favorite album of all time. Although I've liked a lot of CH's later work (as well as the solo works by Neil and Tim), this one remains special to me.

Why do I like it so much? Well, I'll tell you what I think are CH's weaknesses. I'm not a fan of sad, mopey songs, and later works by CH and Neil have them in abundance. (A Sigh, anyone?) Also, Neil's voice sometimes seems a bit harsh (although I consider him an excellent vocalist overall).

The harmonies on Woodface gave it a different sound, and the variety of songs, from novelty to cheerful to sad gave it a lightness and happiness not heard on later albums or on TOLM. It's not surprising it was their biggest hit album in England, and had they not made the stupid mistake of releasing an anti-American song during a time of patriotic fervor (Operation Desert Storm), it would have been a hit in the US, too.
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
I don't tell people how they should respond to my posts. I put them out there, I offer my opinion, and people can say what they like. I go too far at times, I know, but I try to not get heavy-handed about my opinion being better or smarter than someone else's. What you seemed to be saying was that, since your post was in the spirit of "I really love Woodface, and I want to celebrate that" - which is lovely - you only wanted people to respond in kind. You didn't want anyone to say, "Yeah, I like it a lot, but..." Trust me, I understand very well that not everyone shares my point of view. I'm very glad of that, actually; a bunch of adidasmen wouldn't make for a terribly interesting conversation, even to me.


Adidasman, you're one of my favourite people to disagree with on this forum Wink. Please carry on posting as you do and never fear, it you don't substantiate your argument I or others who enjoy a good argument will pick you up on it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on here JJH, but don't expect it to go unchallenged, that would be no fun at all. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Adidasman, you're one of my favourite people to disagree with on this forum Wink. Please carry on posting as you do and never fear, it you don't substantiate your argument I or others who enjoy a good argument will pick you up on it.
Right back atcha, Kittybear. It's good to know I have you and a few other folks on here who are poised and ready to harpoon me when necessary; I promise to return the favor. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on here JJH, but don't expect it to go unchallenged, that would be no fun at all. Wink


I dont think you have to challenge every opinion though, do you?
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on here JJH, but don't expect it to go unchallenged, that would be no fun at all. Wink


I dont think you have to challenge every opinion though, do you?
To paraphrase Bugs Bunny, "He don't know us vewwy well - do he?" Wink
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on here JJH, but don't expect it to go unchallenged, that would be no fun at all. Wink


I dont think you have to challenge every opinion though, do you?


No, not every opinion, but just because someone rightfully posts something that disagrees your view, doesn't invalidate your opinion, it just shows that opinions differ and that they might want to discuss it with you. If you don't want to answer, don't reply.
quote:
Originally posted by adidasman:
quote:
Originally posted by jonjameshall:
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion on here JJH, but don't expect it to go unchallenged, that would be no fun at all. Wink


I dont think you have to challenge every opinion though, do you?
To paraphrase Bugs Bunny, "He don't know us vewwy well - do he?" Wink


Ha Ha Big Grin is this the point when a large 10 tonne acme weight falls on someone?
I think we can all agree that it's about having different opinions and people respecting that.

I think what can get on some peoples nerves is when it seems to become a Neil v Tim thing. That is one topic that has been done to death and we dont need to revisit it.

Woodface is a great album but like all master works it has some flaws. Interestingly enough I don't think you can claim the former without the latter. It would be too perfect which equals dull.
quote:
Originally posted by slowpogo:
I think making Chocolate Cake the first track was as big of a mistake by the band (or whoever is responsible), if not more so, than making it the lead single. I don't dislike the song and it has its place in the CH canon, but it belongs in the middle as a novelty album track - maybe even closer to the end, like Transit Lounge, which was that album's novelty track -


Please clarify, what is a "novelty album track", I've never heard of this concept in relation to CH music before, why are Choc Cake and Transit Lounge novelties? Confused
I dont think they are novelty tracks - their worth is in their difference, that is, showing another side to the band. As such I think they are really important and, for what its worth, two of the more interesting tracks the band has ever done. I like variety!

Should CC have been the first track on Woodface. I am unsure but it was clearly not the best choice as first single. I remember my first listen to that album and it was obvious that WWY was by far the most catchy and commercial song. There should never have been any doubt about it being the single.
quote:
Originally posted by titus:
I dont think they are novelty tracks - their worth is in their difference, that is, showing another side to the band. As such I think they are really important and, for what its worth, two of the more interesting tracks the band has ever done. I like variety!

Should CC have been the first track on Woodface. I am unsure but it was clearly not the best choice as first single. I remember my first listen to that album and it was obvious that WWY was by far the most catchy and commercial song. There should never have been any doubt about it being the single.


I agree Titus Smiler.

I would also put Sister Madly and ESOTW in the same category as CC and Transit Lounge, they are stand out songs because they are noticeably different, and I particularly love them because they add variety to the Finn repertoire.

As for starting woodface with CC, I think it works really well, WWY works well where it is, that transition from Tall Trees is perfect.
Find myself in total agreement with you Kittybear in regard to ESOTW and Sister Madly and I really like the transition from Tall Trees to WWY.

I think they put CC first because they wanted to indicate that this is a different album.It is interesting to note Crowdies opening songs

Mean to Me (very different sound to any Neil SE songs - acoustic guitar and really strong and impassioned vocal)
I Feel Possessd (darker and more obsessive like TOLM itself)
Chocolate Cake (it makes it obvious that this is going to be a different album and that Tim is on board - as both singer and songwriter)
Kare Kare (homage to the place they recorded TA and the atmosphere they found there - also the only group co write)
Nobody Wants To (immediate return of the trademark/noticable CH sound and the subject of a lot of this album - Paul)
Saturday Sun (not so sure what this is about apart from the fact that its the single. Good opener though
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Please clarify, what is a "novelty album track", I've never heard of this concept in relation to CH music before, why are Choc Cake and Transit Lounge novelties? Confused


well, I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way, and I don't mean 'novelty' the way people describe 'Axel F' or whatever. They still deserve to be taken seriously as songs. I actually mean it the way titus described - showing a sufficiently different side of the band, that is not really like the other material on the disc, so that it stands out as more of a novelty. Ultimately I like both of those tracks, but they kind of smack of, 'hey, we're doing something different here.' Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't start an album out that way, is really the main point and why I mentioned it. Good point about 'Sister Madly', that's the same idea.

Examples from other artists might be U2's 'The Wanderer' (last track from Zooropa) where Johnny Cash guest sings; or 'Fitter Happier' by Radiohead from OK Computer. These aren't throwaway tracks in my view, and they have value; but I really wouldn't have started either of those albums with those tracks. (Admittedly, those are much greater diversions than Chocolate Cake or Transit Lounge, but you get the idea)

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