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@Paināporo posted:

I also thought Neil was speaking up for the next generation, which I liked. It's the opposite of being curmudgeonly and much more in line with what I think Neil would say.

I misheard the lyrics I think. But you know what? I still hate it lol.

Eric Clapton & Van Morrison recently made some absurd Covid conspiracy song...whether I totally disagree as I do with that song, or mostly agree as I do with Neil, the earnest preachiness just gives me the willies. Whatever You Want is more arch & satirical which is a very different proposition, more palatable. But straight up earnest political thought? Get that out of my pop song! lol

Last edited by slowpogo
@slowpogo posted:

I misheard the lyrics I think. But you know what? I still hate it lol.

Eric Clapton & Van Morrison recently made some absurd Covid conspiracy song...whether I totally disagree as I do with that song, or mostly agree as I do with Neil, the earnest preachiness just gives me the willies. Whatever You Want is more arch & satirical which makes it more palatable to me. But straight up earnest political thought? Get that out of my pop song! lol

I know....I'm not a big fan of political thoughts outright stated or obvious.  The only problem is that this is part of who Neil is.  Some artists don't get involved politically too much but I know Neil has stated his views in letters to editors, twitter, etc......at least I am pretty sure I remember that.  So it is bound to surface in his songwriting.  My thoughts anyway.  I put the song on the big screen tv yesterday and I still love it.....to me it blows away the depressing stuff on the last cd.  And to top it off, non Crowded House fans and saying it is great just like when I tested Pajama Club and they loved it.  These are people with very good music taste.  To me it is a good indicator anyway...that Neil has hit on some great things with these songs.  And to me they are better than Pajama Club had to offer.  So I think it is some of his best stuff since Together Alone.  (yes I'm including the solo stuff).  Just the strong voice, cohesive group, lyrics all seem to have come together well.

@renzo posted:

I know....I'm not a big fan of political thoughts outright stated or obvious.  The only problem is that this is part of who Neil is.  Some artists don't get involved politically too much but I know Neil has stated his views in letters to editors, twitter, etc......at least I am pretty sure I remember that.  So it is bound to surface in his songwriting.

(yes I'm including the solo stuff).  Just the strong voice, cohesive group, lyrics all seem to have come together well.

Again, it's not the fact that Neil has political views, or that they surface in his songwriting. It's the way he chooses to do it.

Terrorise Me is a really good song that is clearly inspired by political and social events, but it's not so crude as to give you a "thesis statement." What makes the song good is how it explores things indirectly through imagery and scene-setting. It's not about the politics, it's about the human consequences.

As opposed to Playing With Fire, where Neil literally lays down a thesis statement. Ugh. Maybe if there was more substance to the rest of the song, but it's mostly a breezy, fizzy exercise in the vein of Dizzy Heights, but with a thesis bluntly tacked on at the end.

I think this will be a circular argument that could go on forever, so I should probably just stop lol. But the key thing I hope people consider is not Neil's politics or that they are creeping into his songs, but the method by which he does this. I love an artful exploration of political consequences like Terrorise Me. I don't like just having an opinion sung at me as in Playing With Fire, I feel like that's literally the opposite of art.

Last edited by slowpogo
@slowpogo posted:

Again, it's not the fact that Neil has political views, or that they surface in his songwriting. It's the way he chooses to do it.

Terrorise Me is a really good song that is clearly inspired by political and social events, but it's not so crude as to give you a "thesis statement." What makes the song good is how it explores things indirectly through imagery and scene-setting. It's not about the politics, it's about the human consequences.

As opposed to Playing With Fire, where Neil literally lays down a thesis statement. Ugh. Maybe if there was more substance to the rest of the song, but it's mostly a breezy, fizzy exercise in the vein of Dizzy Heights, but with a thesis bluntly tacked on at the end.

I think this will be a circular argument that could go on forever, so I should probably just stop lol. But the key thing I hope people consider is not Neil's politics or that they are creeping into his songs, but the method by which he does this. I love an artful exploration of political consequences like Terrorise Me. I don't like just having an opinion sung at me as in Playing With Fire, I feel like that's literally the opposite of art.

I’m amazed that you consider ‘Playing With Fire’ to be political.  

What’s the thesis?  That we should listen to the opinions of the next generation?  That’s not very contentious, surely?

That we are “driving straight to the wall”?

If it has a message, it’s all very vague and ambiguous - deliberately so, I expect.

I’m amazed that you consider ‘Playing With Fire’ to be political.  

What’s the thesis?  That we should listen to the opinions of the next generation?  That’s not very contentious, surely?

That we are “driving straight to the wall”?

If it has a message, it’s all very vague and ambiguous - deliberately so, I expect.

I would challenge you to present a context in which those ideas are not political. Younger generations always poll more liberal, older the opposite. To essentially say "listen to the children, or it'll be the end of us"...that certainly has a particular political resonance in the last year doesn't it? (at least for those of us living in America in 2020, which included Neil)

As well this is Neil's quote on the song: “This song was formed out of a Crowded House jam, live in the studio but then evolved its character through many twists and turns during quarantine in 2020. ‘Playing With Fire’ carries within it the contradiction I often feel on joyous occasions, the presence of hope together with an impending sense of doom.”

Gee, I wonder what might have influenced a song that came about during quarantine in 2020? Certainly it would be a mistake to see a political context in the lyrics?!

Yeah I'm being facetious. Whatever You Want is more obvious about it, but with both that song and this one, only by completely ignoring the context of the times can you ignore the political implications of the lyrics and Neil's own words about the songs.

WYW couched its viewpoint in a vibe of mischief and cynicism, which I can certainly get down with. You gotta Trojan Horse that stuff, couch it in an attitude or an aesthetic or something! But Playing With Fire reads much more earnest (and dull) to me. As vague as it may seem to you, it's still too much for me. Archer's Arrows was much less clear in my opinion but while I loved the music, the lyrics were wishy-washy to the point of meaningless.

I realize any art made in recent times is likely influenced in some way by politics and the pandemic, and that's not a crime. But as I keep emphasizing, my beef is not with the message but the delivery method.

Last edited by slowpogo
I don't see the lyrics as political in the slightest, I see this song as bathed in positivity and hope and life affirming. Musically it's joyous and lyrically life affirming and hopeful. I have notated my thoughts below in bold.
The chairman's looking out for me
And fortune used to favor me
Lately I've been lying frozen in my bed
Feeling like the end isn't far away
I think some people are getting hung up who the "chairman' is. It's not actually the main point in the song, see below notations..
Now some might say
We're losing ground
I've never seen such a thing
Never seen such a thing
He's saying "some" say we're losing ground..but then reaffirms "I've never seen such a thing", ie i don't feel that way.
To thank your enemy
My wife is wild in quarantine
The chairman's got it in for me
And my brain is getting closer to the edge
But I can't explain that trip to her
A simple reference to life in lockdown and the stresses that many experienced  
Now some might say
We're winding down
I've never seen such a thing
Never seen such a thing
Again, reaffirms a positive attitude, some may say we're winding down (ie world going to wreck) , but "I've never seen such a thing"
We're playing with fire
And we're playing with fire
And we're playing with fire
And this time, let's all be quiet
The next generation's talking
We're behind the wheel
We're driving straight to the wall
He's not saying "listen to the children, or it'll be the end of us", he's simply saying , "let's be quiet and listen to the next generation". That's what any good parent does every day. It's what any kind , empathic human being does. hThat ain't political. He's not being a curmudgeonly or 'old man shouting at the world' as I have seen bizarrely stated on the Stevehoffman forum about the song's supposed political nature.
Pretend it's all right
We'll make in time
Be equal to the fight
Be someone saving lives
And some may say
We'll turn it 'round
If you believe such a thing
I'll believe such a thing
Again, a positive attitude, some may say we'l turn this around" (ie we can change, the world isn't going to ruin) and that if YOU believe that I will too.



@slowpogo posted:

I would challenge you to present a context in which those ideas are not political. Younger generations always poll more liberal, older the opposite. To essentially say "listen to the children, or it'll be the end of us"...that certainly has a particular political resonance in the last year doesn't it? (at least for those of us living in America in 2020, which included Neil)

As well this is Neil's quote on the song: “This song was formed out of a Crowded House jam, live in the studio but then evolved its character through many twists and turns during quarantine in 2020. ‘Playing With Fire’ carries within it the contradiction I often feel on joyous occasions, the presence of hope together with an impending sense of doom.”

Gee, I wonder what might have influenced a song that came about during quarantine in 2020? Certainly it would be a mistake to see a political context in the lyrics?!

Yeah I'm being facetious. Whatever You Want is more obvious about it, but with both that song and this one, only by completely ignoring the context of the times can you ignore the political implications of the lyrics and Neil's own words about the songs.

WYW couched its viewpoint in a vibe of mischief and cynicism, which I can certainly get down with. You gotta Trojan Horse that stuff, couch it in an attitude or an aesthetic or something! But Playing With Fire reads much more earnest (and dull) to me. As vague as it may seem to you, it's still too much for me. Archer's Arrows was much less clear in my opinion but while I loved the music, the lyrics were wishy-washy to the point of meaningless.

I realize any art made in recent times is likely influenced in some way by politics and the pandemic, and that's not a crime. But as I keep emphasizing, my beef is not with the message but the delivery method.

I think you’re taking it all far too seriously in labelling this as a “ideas” song.   Neil hasn’t just released “Give Peace A Chance”!

I see these lyrics - like much of his writing - as snippets of thoughts; some chosen simply because he liked the sound of them, the rhythm or the rhymes.  

Of course,  you can read all kinds of things into the words, if you’re so determined.  The fact that his lyrics can mean different things to different people is one of the strengths of his compositions  

To my ears, this melody’s pretty upbeat and the arrangement is catchy. I think it’s by far the best of the songs so far released by the new line up. I simply cannot get hung up on whether or not Neil was making oblique references to climate change or Donald Trump...

But, maybe you’re correct. Maybe he really is sending out a message to Trump supporters, fans of fossil fuel burning and all those who dismiss the opinions of the callow youth...

I think you’re taking it all far too seriously in labelling this as a “ideas” song.   Neil hasn’t just released “Give Peace A Chance”!

I simply cannot get hung up on whether or not Neil was making oblique references to climate change or Donald Trump...

But, maybe you’re correct. Maybe he really is sending out a message to Trump supporters, fans of fossil fuel burning and all those who dismiss the opinions of the callow youth...

I think I'm just not communicating very well on this song. It's certainly not Give Peace a Chance and I actually don't think it's an "ideas" song. Rather I think he's throwing in bald sociopolitical sentiments where in the past he'd be more artful if he wanted to explore such things.

Don't Dream It's Over could be read politically if you *choose*, because there's always war and waste, etc. But had Neil included specific references to Reagan or something more timely, it would be much harder to "let it roll off you" or choose not to see political leanings.

On the other hand Playing With Fire actually references quarantine in its lyrics, as well as making a pretty direct statement about generational divides. So it may not be an ideas song but I think it requires some mental gymnastics to pretend it's not a product of 2020 and all that implies. And if we're going down that road I prefer he go full snark as in Whatever You Want or just leave out timely references.

I'm apparently alone on this and basically just repeating myself to diminishing effect so, whatever.

Last edited by slowpogo
@slowpogo posted:

I'm not sure, he's seeming a little more prickly these days. I think he'd probably argue it's more open-ended than I'm reading it, and tell me to shove off if I don't like it. Fair enough I guess.

Neil has always had the ability to be "prickly" . In the book Something So Strong , it recounts the story about Neil's response to what I think was critisicmTemple Of Low Men if I remember correctly ? Neil certainly wasn't happy with the critic

Last edited by stuartjb
@slowpogo posted:

I'm not sure, he's seeming a little more prickly these days. I think he'd probably argue it's more open-ended than I'm reading it, and tell me to shove off if I don't like it. Fair enough I guess.

Yeah, he’s pretty thin skinned when it comes to reviewers. On the one hand, music is such a personal and emotional endeavor, so I can understand, but I do wish he’d bite his tongue a bit sometimes, it comes across as though he thinks he’s never wrong, and anyone who disagrees isn’t worth listening to.

Oh I don’t know. One comment in Something So Strong - quite some decades ago, and a tongue in cheek conversation on a recent Fangradio show about ONE critic hardly seems sound does seem compelling and sound evidence to make such broad character assumptions as Neil being thinned skinned and “thinks he is never wrong and anyone he disagrees with is wrong”.

I’ve listened to hundreds of interviews with Neil over 30 years and have a pretty good sense of his views and sense of humour.  Anyone can zero in on a few comments and build a case to support their belief if they are so inclined, but Neil as thin skinned misses the Mark in my view,

Late to the party as always, thanks to the brontosaurially slow speed of news in India’s lockdown bubble.  

I finally heard Play With Fire.  I’m absolutely in love with it.

To my ears, which fortunately aren't everybody's ears, this is a deliriously joyous song about catastrophe.

The closest any other song has come to capturing that paradox has been REM’s “The End of the World As We Know it (And I Feel Fine).”  I find the music of PWF hits my pleasure centres more unerringly, however, no doubt because it’s channeling the glam Bowie and even late 60s Motown Revue lodestones of my childhood.

It’s yet another of the fun paradoxes of the song that, even as it cheers on the “next generation” (the seeming political preachiness slowpogo dislikes), its guitars and brass are drenched in nostalgia for an older musical soundscape.  

But it’s not Karaoke night with Mick Ronson and Diana Ross.  The song’s recollection of them, and the emotion evoked by their musical styles, never feels earnest or "faithful."  It’s more dream-like, in the way that a dream can conjure a morass of otherwise disconnected memories and feelings, allowing us to confront and work through our fears in a register of consolation.

The video captures all this perfectly, I think.  Particularly the dream-like ambience.  (I also love seeing Nick slowly morph into a Brazilian carnival queen.)  I rather like the idea that the shadowy, sinister "chairman" is played by Mike Chunn; but I think he's just a dream-figure version of God, Fate, Pandemic Architect, you name it.

Everyone here seems to think Neil in both PWF and WYW is taking on Trump.  He may well be.  But all three videos for the songs so far suggest to me he’s doing something bigger and more universal than that — he’s working through the trauma of a year of pandemic, lockdown and separation.  If he’s being political, I’d suggest it’s less through the didacticism of his lyrics and more through a general aesthetic, audible in the music and visible in the videos, of collective celebration at the cliff’s edge of catastrophe.

And I'm celebrating with him.  With brass accompanists and Motown revue dancers and Ziggy Stardust spacesuits.

Last edited by Watney Sideburns

I sometimes find myself quite puzzled at the disapproving comments on the new songs here and on the SteveHoffman forum,  but just noticed now on YouTube how people are judging the songs.

Play With Fire has 1400 thumbs ups and 30 thumbs downs.

To the Island has 3000 ups and 69 downs.

Whatever You Want 4100 thumbs up and 148 thumbs down.



...98% or so think the band are doing just great. Maybe not scientific but certainly a broader perspective on how the new songs are being received.

Last edited by sinner62

To be fair I Got You, I Wish I Never, Poor Boy, History Never Repeats, Six Months on a Leaky Boat, Message to My Girl are epic.



Better Be Home Soon is a Top 5 Crowded House song, but Capitol Didn't support it in the US.

Having said that Chocolate Cake?  as the lead Woodface single in the US?  When Four Seasons in One Day (up there with Just Talking Sense as greatest Finn composition), Fall at Your Feet, Whispers and Moans, Sure As I Am, How Will You Go, Weather With you are all potential hits.

https://www.frenzforum.com/top...5#673489562567800785



I completely agree. Playing with Fire improves with each listen and has an energy we haven't heard since Together Alone.  The first half of the album is very strong. Sweet Tooth sounds like a Macca solo hit in waiting.



Neil mentioned the band in an interview, and they are really tight.  The album is beautifully recorded and much crisper than Intriguer.

Last edited by Doctor Mu

I know some people have mentioned the brass horns part of the song and how effective it is. Is it possible that if that part was changed or rearranged to something else like the obvious of electric guitar that the song would be more “accepted” by listeners and be definitely stamped as a classic by CH? If so,  would some of you  change that part? I still really like it for its uniqueness and Motown feel but it does at times make it too much of a camp feel to it like it turns it into comedy bit section...emphasized more in the video.

After spending a week with the album, this is the one track I want to skip. I do love the opening/verse groove, because it really sounds like a BAND gelling together in good form. But the rest of it sounds like all the things I’ve disliked about much of Neil’s output the last 14 years. It has the same loungey “major 7” sound as Dizzy Heights or Either Side of the World which for whatever reason, just doesn’t do it for me. I especially dislike the ending which everyone seems to love...the 60s “baaahp baaaahp” backing vocals and brass have a kitschy, twee, corporatized vibe that reminds me of a car commercial or something. It seems like they just cut/pasted that retro style into the song rather than adapting & making their own like they did with the Western/California sounds later in the album.

And finally, the limp and vague preachiness I already discussed above...the “next generation” stuff, “be equal to the fight, be someone saving lives” etc. Blech. Nothing wrong with the sentiments per se but they just rub me a dozen wrong ways in this song.

Really the only track I don’t like on an album that’s easily a high point in the latter part of Neil’s career.

Last edited by slowpogo

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