
Herald Sun News Article
Comments? Thoughts?
I guess this eliminates ANY chance the band had to EVER reform.
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So you don't think Nick spoke to the news reporter? Or quoted him correctly? I know what you're saying & I'm not always that happy @ newspaper reports, but this one exists because Nick actually went out of his way ot publically embarras Neil Finn 7 years after the split. Or are you saying an actual news item about the band in the biggest newspaper in Australia wasn't worth starting a new topic about?quote:*never* trust what you read in the papers.
I don't get what's so embarrassing about it. IMO, it all makes sense. Neil had to have thought about a solo career long before the breakup, we already know about some of the internal problems within the group (Nick being fired by Neil among them), and it's clear to everyone that Neil was the controlling force behind the band. Taking all that into account, the only thing left is the individual band members' opinions and perceptions about what happened -- I'd say Nick's certainly entitled to his. He may still be sour about the whole breakup, but it didn't stop him from playing with Neil (and Paul) at the Cold Live at the Chapel gig in 2001. In short, I personally think you're making a big deal over a small thing.quote:this one exists because Nick actually went out of his way ot publically embarras Neil Finn 7 years after the split
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I wouldn't take this version (or Neil's) as fact -- it's all perception.quote:I can see why Nick might take this personally, but we don't really know if it was meant that way when it all actually went down.
However, having said all that, I can certainly understand why Nick might might feel this way, and he's certainly entitled to his opinion about it. This sort of situation is fraught with emotional overtones, and while it's one thing for me to comment as a third party observer, I might feel very different about it if I was in Nick's shoes, and might very well feel exactly the same way he does. I don't think Nick should be crucified for making these comments - he's only human, after all, with feelings that can get hurt, just like the rest of us.
Exactly. He lived off the genius of Neil Finn for more than 10 years playing bass lines already written, enjoying the life of a rock star, earning heaps of money... and yet he still wants to make Neil look bad to the general public (and a page 9 article in Australia's highest selling tabloid is appealing to the dumbest demographic - people who's perception of Sir Neil will change for the worse).quote:Originally posted by gryphon:
When Split Enz broke up, it was Neil Finn who gave Nick Seymour the chance to be in this amazing band, he came to Neil cap in hand, and has benefited incredibly well, in all areas.
Make that Nick living off Neil for... 18 years?quote:...each time Neil tours Crowded House sell CDS, and a percentage goes to Nick, and Paul (Mark/Peter/Tim)... they do not have to do a thing.
Neil (IMO) had every right to be the controlling force behind the "band" - he started up the band, sang lead vocals... and of course wrote the songs - which (IMO) cancells everything else out. I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with what you're saying PG, just incorporating my opinions in & using your post as a basequote:Was Neil a controling force behind Crowded House, yes and I am so glad he was, in many cases, but I can think of hundreds of examples where Nick and Pauls input was always part of it.... Neil was the leader, I think everyone would agree with that...but Crowded House really was Neil, Nick and Paul...
Yeah, quite possibly. It just so happens that there was another article in the Herald Sun's Hit Entertainment Liftout that same day (today) about Tarmac Adam:quote:I'm not sure if the article was taken out of context, etc, but it just feels like a really cheap shot, because Nui (journalist who we have all known for years) couldn't get a Tarmac Adam article printed in the Sun without some sort of
beefed up Crowded House piece for placement......
YIKES! I'll admit that it's not for everybody, my sister gave me the CD for my birthday and said something like "sorry, this is sh*te" whilst it played in the background at my birthday dinner. I'd recommend it to fans of Coldplay or Travis...certainly not music to change the world by any stretch but an enjoyable, optimistic little album (in my very humble opinion)...I probably would not have bought it without hearing it first myself.quote:Originally posted by gryphon:
[qb] Wuntie
I agree,
I think fans should see Tarmac Adam and maybe have a listen to the CD before you buy it. So far we have had a massive 6 emails regarding the CD, and 5 people hate it to one liking it. (Two if you include Wuntie). Everyone's different, some may love it,.if you are asking me,I think it is so bland, I truly dislike Matt ODonnells voice and the songwriting is horrid. It put's the "S" in HIT.
[/qb]
Oh, I certainly agree with that. I don't care that the group members didn't contribute equally -- they all contributed in some way.quote:Was Neil a controling force behind Crowded House, yes and I am so glad he was, in many cases, but I can think of hundreds of examples where Nick and Pauls input was always part of it.... Neil was the leader, I think everyone would agree with that...but Crowded House really was Neil, Nick and Paul...
It's easy to have that viewpoint when you aren't the one who feels like you're being controlled.quote:Neil (IMO) had every right to be the controlling force behind the "band" - he started up the band, sang lead vocals... and of course wrote the songs - which (IMO) cancells everything else out.
In fairness to Nick, it's a two-way street just like Peter said. I'm sure anyone interviewing Nick about Tarmac Adam is going to inevitably ask about Crowded House. I can't really blame Nick if he still has some bitter feelings about it. He was obviously hurt the most by the breakup, so it's only natural (heh) that he's taking longer to "move on." It's been my experience that the timeline for moving on is an individual thing.quote:If Peter is right, and Nick only wants to get some media attention, then it's really sad.
Well said, Paul. Once again, I'd be inclined to say he was "telling it like he perceived it to be." Also, I think you touched on something else -- a lot of this is probably hyperbole. I don't think Nick's saying Neil literally held a possible breakup over his head constantly. As time goes on, a few fights here and there might seem more like "all the time."quote:Its entirely possible that Nick IS over it, that it doesn't bother him, but he's just telling it like it was. No different to me talking to friends about arguments I had with ex-partners, for example. It doesn't mean I'm not over it, in fact, possibly the opposite: I'm over it and I can talk about it...
I have two words for you. Rupert Murdoch.quote:Originally posted by Wilich:
[qb]Australia is a great country, but the press sucks, really really sucks in some places. So this article really doesn't surprise me.
[/qb]
This is really unfair. For a start, where is your proof that the bass lines were already written? I can think of only one song that springs to mind with a pre-written bass line that Nick copied, and that's Bones Hillman's bass line from the demo of Can't Carry On. Even when CH played SE songs Nick played his own bass line rather than copying Nigel Griggs. Listen to the SE version of This Is Massive and then the CH version. Isn't it a bit cheap to personally attack someone (by basically saying they had no creative input, it was all written for him) when you have (incorrectly as it turns out) perceived them as personally attacking someone they know very well, and we don't.quote:Exactly. He lived off the genius of Neil Finn for more than 10 years playing bass lines already written, enjoying the life of a rock star, earning heaps of money...
Ouch!quote:Originally posted by Camus:
[qb]This is really unfair. For a start, where is your proof that the bass lines were already written? I can think of only one song that springs to mind with a pre-written bass line that Nick copied, and that's Bones Hillman's bass line from the demo of Can't Carry On. Even when CH played SE songs Nick played his own bass line rather than copying Nigel Griggs. Listen to the SE version of This Is Massive and then the CH version. Isn't it a bit cheap to personally attack someone (by basically saying they had no creative input, it was all written for him) when you have (incorrectly as it turns out) perceived them as personally attacking someone they know very well, and we don't.[/qb]quote:Exactly. He lived off the genius of Neil Finn for more than 10 years playing bass lines already written, enjoying the life of a rock star, earning heaps of money...
Hey there Camusquote:Originally posted by Camus:
[qb] Hi Secret God,[/qb]
You seem to be more knowledgable (is that a word?) than me. <<< I thought I better add that before I start talking about something I don't know much aboutquote:I agree with what Seven Worlds wrote. I find it hard to believe that Neil arranged the songs totally by himself. There is a distinction here between writing a song, and arranging it.
That, I can't agree with. It's my opinion that a song's solo is part of the song (especially in DDIO's case!) so whoever wrote a song's solo should get credit... like didn't Eddie Van Halen write the solo part to Michael Jackson's beat it? I dunno if he got credit for it, but it's a major part of the song (as is the case with the DDIO bit) & if he did write it, he should be credited.quote:It's in Something So Strong that Mitchel Froom wrote the solo for Don't Dream It's Over. This is a solo though, so quite rightly he isn't credited, as Neil Finn wrote the song.
Um... I have no idea who Johnny Hodges is, let alone Duke Ellington, so I won't put my opinion forward on that topic, but if that Johnny Hodges bloke improvised on one of that Duke Ellington dude's songs, I believe he should be credited for what he did... just as Eddie Rayner and Mitchell Froom were.quote:Let's take it a step further, should Duke Ellington have credited Johnny Hodges (possibly the most famous of all of Ellington's men, Hodges was THE alto sax player in Ellington's band from 1928 until he died in the late sixties) for all those incredible solos on Ellington's tunes? Of course not, because Ellington wrote the framework and the melody that Hodges then improvised on.
Well I don't know really why he did bother with the whole "band" concept... maybe because he didn't want even more attention? Maybe because he wanted a guise? Maybe because it was the logical thing to do back in the 1980s? Maybe because he thought Paul's humorous personallity could help his "band" become world dominant? I doubt it had much to do with Nick Seymour's equally creative geniusquote:I firmly believe that when Neil Finn writes a song it is a melody, chords and most likely the harmonies. Bands where the songwriter dictates each and every part to the other performers rarely work. Why bother with a band?
That thought isn't as strange as it may have originally seemed to readers. Get this: In the 19 songs I have from the Try Whistling This sessions, only 14 of them were solely written by Neil.... and from the One Nil album, it seems Neil Finn only wrote SEVEN by himself. Does that tell us that Neil Finn's new bands have more creative imput than what his various Crowded House line-ups had?quote:Easier to use session musicians.
Yes, in a lot of cases that's probably correct. In REM for example, each member gets equal credit for the songs written... so does that mean each member actually contributed to all the songs enough to warrant a songwriting credit? Probably not, but it would have people / fans thinking everyone brought a part to a band.quote:The whole thing about a band is you have the foundation of the song and everybody brings their part to it.
So how did Crowded House last nearly 12 years?quote:Bands usually end when players have no creative input into the arrangement.
Good point. I have no idea if Phil Judd was that much of a genius to write all that, so he probably relied on Eddie Rayner's (hopefully I didn't spell his name wrong again) skills, but not enough to warrant a co-written song I guess?quote:The songs on Mental Notes are credited to either Judd/Finn or Judd. Do you seriously think that they wrote all the parts? Including ALL of Eddie Rayner's keyboard parts (remember Tim Finn does not play piano to anything near the standard of Eddie Rayner, and as far as I know Phil Judd couldn't play keyboards at all at the time)? But if you look at the sleeve notes, it clearly states that the songs are all arranged by Split Enz. I don't believe for a second that either Finn or Judd wrote Mike Chunn's bass lines.
Well why didn't Neil give a bit more (due?) credit to Mark Hart, ect?quote:Essentially the song is written, it is arranged by the band. Think how Together Alone was written. Most of the arrangements came out of group jams.
Ahhh... it was Mark Hart who suggested that? I remember hearing that a while back, but didn't know it was Mark. But if all Mark did was say "Hey, Neil... why don't you make that song slower?", that shouldn't mean he should be credited, but if he re-arranged the song completely, he should. I don't know what sort of changes Mark made sorry.quote:Mark Hart turned Locked Out from a slow acoustic ballad to the Ramones version (Neil Finn's own words) that we have today. I notice Locked Out is written solely by Neil Finn though.
Well if he wrote the bass lines to Neil's songs, then I also would think it would be the same deal with Paul. If he didn't come up with the bass lines to Neil's songs, then I'd still reckon he helped out Paul's songs.quote:...Yes, I do firmly believe that Nick came up with the bass lines to Paul's songs.
Listening now... & I can't honestly figure out that song. The chorus is too distorted to tell what is where & the drum track is weird. Sorry.quote:...(listen to Twisty Bass if you want to hear a Neil Finn bass line).
Phew! That's a relief. Nah, it's cool... your post was entertaining & informative & I know you weren't having a go @ me.quote:I'm not having a go at you or anything like that (obligatory)...
Well I think he probably had some idea of how the overall song (including the drum track) was going to sound... & someone else writing the drum track to a song isn't going to mean the song is going to sound much different, so if he didn't like what Paul came up with, he would have him configure it I guess. I haven't read Something So Strong or anything & I don't know all about the band, so my thoughts are only just that.quote:but to answer your questions, no I don't believe Neil Finn wrote the basslines to all the CH songs. What I do believe is that he would reject bass lines, make suggestions and that he wrote the lyrics (though even this isn't necessarily true Paul Hester wrote the line about blood in the chorus of Four Seasons and we're all aware that Liam Finn wrote the line about Mrs Hairy Legs in Chocolate Cake) the chords and the melody. Do you think Neil wrote all of Paul's drum parts as well?
Did he play the drums on that? Are you talking about the studio version? Doesn't the drums sound any good or something?quote:Having heard You Can Touch I'd say Neil Finns keeping his drumming genius very very quiet.
And what's wrong with a song sounding like lester?quote:When Neil Finn writes a song I imagine they sound like the demo of Lester, either a solo acoustic or piano, lyrics, melody and harmonies.
It most certainly is a word, I don't like to say this as people seem to get very nasty when this is revealed (they seem to see some sort of superiority thing which is NOT the case) but I do have a Bachelor of Music majoring in composition and I am classically trained. However everyone is entitled to their own opinion of coursequote:You seem to be more knowledgable (is that a word?) than me.
Oh dear, Duke ELlington was possibly one of the most famous Jazz composers ever. His songs include It Don't Mean a Thing, Mood Indigo, Satin Doll, I Let A SOng Go Out of My Heart, I'm Beginning to See The Light, Caravan, The Mooche, Black and Tan Fantasy, Perdido, Cotton Tail, Do Nothing Till You Hear From Me, Solitude, Sophisticated Lady, In A Mellow Tone, Just Squeeze Me, Don't Get Around Much Anymore, I Got It Bad (and That Ain't Good), phew, and that's on;y a fraction of his output, everyone of which is a jazz standard. However he's been dead since 1972 and if you aren't into Jazz, you probably don't know any of those songs. Have you heard of Louis Armstrong? Ellington is just as well known, if not more so.quote:Um... I have no idea who Johnny Hodges is, let alone Duke Ellington, so I won't put my opinion forward on that topic
Why? He's playing a solo over Ellington's piece. That means that when I play It Don't Mean A Thing and solo over the form, I should have my name next to Ellington's. Or when I play Fingers of Love and play my own guitar solo, the song should read N. Finn/J Richards, as the solo is all mine. Surely you agree that that is idiotic?quote:but if that Johnny Hodges bloke improvised on one of that Duke Ellington dude's songs, I believe he should be credited for what he did...
Because that's what CH was. Can't you hear the difference between TWT and One Nil and the CH albums? CH has it's own wonderful unique sound. There is a strong feeling of being a band and band unity in CH, which I don't feel in TWT.quote:Well I don't know really why he did bother with the whole "band" concept...
That's because he went on a writing holiday with Jim Moiginie (I know that's spelt wrong but TWT is too far away at the momentquote:In the 19 songs I have from the Try Whistling This sessions, only 14 of them were solely written by Neil....
Yes it is. I just cannot see CH lasting that long if all the parts were dictated by Neil Finn. SUre I agree he shaped the parts to fit with his song, but I don't believe he wrote them all himself. I DO agree that he wrote all the songs by himself. At the end of the day, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this, unless I can win you over to my sidequote:So how did Crowded House last nearly 12 years? (I guess that's where we disagree)
So how is Eddie Rayner's superlative keyboard work (and let's face it, the keyboard solos were the best in SE, oh ok, that's subjectivequote:I have no idea if Phil Judd was that much of a genius to write all that, so he probably relied on Eddie Rayner's (hopefully I didn't spell his name wrong again) skills, but not enough to warrant a co-written song I guess?
If you can get hold of CH 1994 Fleadh concert you can hear how Locked Out originally sounded. Neil also then goes on to say how the songs used to change drastically when the band got hold of them. This doesn't sound like a control freak dictating all the parts to me, it sounds more like a band where everyone had creative input into the arrangements. Mark Hart sped it up and turned it into a bit of a thrash and presumably improvised both guitar solosquote:Ahhh... it was Mark Hart who suggested that? I remember hearing that a while back, but didn't know it was Mark. But if all Mark did was say "Hey, Neil... why don't you make that song slower?", that shouldn't mean he should be credited, but if he re-arranged the song completely, he should. I don't know what sort of changes Mark made sorry.
He did, Mark Hart is co credited on Together Alone and Kare Kare. Kare Kare is written by all four members and presumably Mark Hart wrote part of Together Alone. I do like his horror stories of Neil rejecting the brass arrangement of that song about four times. Possibly band politics had shifted by that time and Neil was happy to give co credits, Nick is credited for Catherine Wheels. Song writers and composers are very close to their work, we hate to give co credits, unless very well deserving. After all, we do most 90% of the work and if somebody pulls out a rip snorting solo but didn't contribute to the writing of the actual piece or song, then no I wouldn't give them a credit. Same if I wrote a song and someone added a bass line I wouldn't credit them unless it significantly changed the song.quote:Well why didn't Neil give a bit more (due?) credit to Mark Hart, ect?
Yes but I was talking about the bass line which is clear as a bell, extremely boring and badly played (IMO) and quite exposed for the first minute of the song. The drums are mostly a looped sample, not to some people's taste, but still a good song, and IMO far more creative than She Will Have Her Way, but now I see vistas of cans and worms appearing before mine eyes.quote:Listening [to Twisty Bass] now... & I can't honestly figure out that song. The chorus is too distorted to tell what is where & the drum track is weird. Sorry.
Not too sure what you mean by configure, but yes, this is what I meant, Paul coming up with his drum part would obviously be complementary to the actual song. So if Neil didn't like it, I'd imagine he'd say so, they'd discuss ideas, he may show Paul what he wants, Paul may then add to this or say that won't work etc... To a degree it's the same with the bassline, Neil Finn has already laid down the guidelines with the chord progression and melody.quote:Well I think he probably had some idea of how the overall song (including the drum track) was going to sound... & someone else writing the drum track to a song isn't going to mean the song is going to sound much different, so if he didn't like what Paul came up with, he would have him configure it I guess.
Yes he did, on the studio version that's on Afterglow. He and Paul apparantly had a fight and Paul went to bed, so Neil multitracked each drum part by himself because he didn't have the skill to play it all at the same time. Well, it's all subjective, but I don't think the drumming sounds very competent on that recording, and certainly considering the way he recorded it, it doesn't tally with the idea that he wrote all the other drum parts that Paul played.quote:[You Can Touch] Did he play the drums on that? Are you talking about the studio version? Doesn't the drums sound any good or something?
Nothing, I never said there was. I used that as an example because I presumed, unlike me, you don't have a huge bootleg collection, and that is a well known solo acoustic demo of Neil Finn's. Also it doesn't have bass or drum parts (pretty much like the WF demos, except they do have drums because Paul is there). I have heard that live version of Lester, but I prefer the demoquote:And what's wrong with a song sounding like lester?
I'm known for my verbosity and my tenacityquote:This would have to be the longest post I have ever posted to this forum! Feel special Camus!
*Bows out of this discussion immediatley, as I have no credibility at all*quote:Originally posted by Camus:
...but I do have a Bachelor of Music majoring in composition and I am classically trained...
Fair enough then. I guess you're happy to have people add to your song & not be credited. Although that might be different in other songwriting partnerships / bands. BTW, I'm all for Neil Finn (for example) getting sole credit on HIS dongs on either of the Finn Brothers albums - IF he wrote them... & I find it hard to believe both brothers had equal imput into every song... but we discussed that a while back in another topic & it's of no relevance to this discussion...quote:if I wrote a song (and I've written many) and someone else improvised a fantastic solo over the top of my chord progression using my melody as a basis (also happened many times) I would not give them a credit.
Yeah I do agree... but it's a strange example & I never emplied that just anyone should be able to add a solo to a song & get credit for it just like that. What I did find hard to believe is that Neil Finn apparently didn't write the famous solo in don't dream it's over... & with that part being a major part of the song & making him millions of dollars... well you'd feel pretty pissed off if you were Eddie Rayner or Mitchell Froom!quote:That means that when I play It Don't Mean A Thing and solo over the form, I should have my name next to Ellington's. Or when I play Fingers of Love and play my own guitar solo, the song should read N. Finn/J Richards, as the solo is all mine. Surely you agree that that is idiotic?
Not really to be honest. All I hear is Neil Finn's songs being sung by Neil Finn with the relevant people on other various instruments. Sure, his sound has changed a fair bit over the years, but there's no way I'd be able to say... "Hmmm... that isn't Nick Seymour on bass... it sounds to me like Sebastion Steinberg!... or Wendy... or Lisa... or whoever is actually Neil's bassist these days". (reading the linear notes do help though...)quote:Can't you hear the difference between TWT and One Nil and the CH albums?
Well I'll grant you that there was chemistry in the band (at the live shows - which I know through bootlegs), but it's my opinion that as long as Neil Finn is present, beautiful music will be made (with or without Paul, Nick, Craig, Eddie, Tim, Mark or Peter)... the whole "band unity" doesn't really do much for me.quote:CH has it's own wonderful unique sound. There is a strong feeling of being a band and band unity in CH, which I don't feel in TWT.
When I said that, I didn't mean it to be taken so seriously... hell, I think I even said something about Neil using Paul's humour as a way of getting to the top, but yeah, there were many big solo artists in the 1980s.quote:Why was [being in a band] the logical thing to do in the eighties?
Hmmm... it is strange that all that time Neil actually had a band, he bareley wrote much material with them, but enter Jim M_i__o_gne... (I don't know how to spell that either).quote:That's because he went on a writing holiday with Jim Moiginie ... and wrote a lot of songs with him, the same way he wrote a lot of Woodface with Tim.
Well i'm not really on any side herequote:I just cannot see CH lasting that long if all the parts were dictated by Neil Finn ... I think we may have to agree to disagree on this, unless I can win you over to my side![]()
Yeah I think I've got that somewhere. will seek out. Cheers.quote:If you can get hold of CH 1994 Fleadh concert you can hear how Locked Out originally sounded...
Well the songs regularly DO sound similar live... but the fans don't want to go a concert to hear an emulation of the album! Neil usually does play all his written parts, but there's solos & instrumentals & covers in there to mix it up. It's sort of hard to answer a question when you're not really sure if it IS actually a question or notquote:If Neil was such a control freak, wouldn't the songs always sound the same when performed live, that is, playing all his written parts?
Yeah I noticed that. I meant all the other songs he apparently altered, but it's still pretty nice of Neil to credit him at all.quote:Mark Hart is co credited on Together Alone and Kare Kare.
I don't like it when bands give credit to everyone. Do you seriously think "Finn/Seymour/Hester/Hart" had enough input into kare kare to warrant them all a c-songwriting credit? As opposed to the other songs?quote:Kare Kare is written by all four members and presumably Mark Hart wrote part of Together Alone.
Oh ok. I believe you, but to me, it just sounds the same, but I don't really have an eye (or ear)for detail in poorly recorded songs.quote:...but I don't think the drumming sounds very competent on that recording [You Can Touch]...
I wasn't having a go at you there.... it's cool... I just really like that song.quote:[qb]Nothing, I never said there was. I used that as an example because I presumed, unlike me, you don't have a huge bootleg collection...quote:And what's wrong with a song sounding like lester? [/qb]
YES! 2 times on CD and 2 times on cassette! It took me all of 8 years to finally *get* that album, but I'm just glad I eventually did understand it.quote:Do you own the Finn album?
Possibly. I like the whole raw feel to it, so I wouldn't mind if the bass wasn't up to scratch.quote:The basslines on that (played by Neil) are nothing like Nick Seymour's CH basslines.
Well there's 2 new words for me! I still don't know what you're known for, but it sounds interesting. Thanks for the post & I cropped a fair bit out of your post (hope you don't mind) because me replying to it all would have me having to think harder!quote:I'm known for my verbosity and my tenacity
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