Mark Hart

I don't want to make any scathing criticisms without knowing how things will play out. All I'll say is I am a massive admirer of what Mark brought to the band. Together Alone was the high water mark of Neil's entire career and Mark's instrumentation played a critical role. I hope his importance is acknowledged and remembered by everyone.

At the Opera House three years ago, I queued up early to stake out a spot not at centre stage, but at stage right, to be as close to Mark's brilliance as possible. 

I’m just as shocked and equally disappointed with the news... Mark Hart is not only an integral part of the music, the history, and the overall brand, he’s genuinely one of the nicest guys ever. His presence added a level of maturity and musical sophistication that will be very-very hard to replicate. As a multi-instrumentalist and vocalist he will leave a gap that is virtually impossible to fill... Here’s hoping Rick Davies’ health is on the mend, and maybe Supertramp decides to do a world tour or Ringo Starr calls up and invites him back to his All-Starr band.

In terms of the future of Crowded House, the silver lining here is that the band will likely go on beyond just the single show in Sydney in April next year. Who will actually be in the band, and what (if any) new material will we get, will likely remain a mystery until after Fleetwood Mac wraps their tour later in the fall. Neil is intentionally and rightfully trying not take any attention away from the Mac; they’ve been really good to him and he owes them that much.

My guess is Matt is also out (I really hope I’m wrong, but how/why could they ditch Mark and keep Matt?).

The idea of Mitchell Froom joining them in Sydney (and maybe beyond) is exciting, and also indicates they’re covered in terms of keyboards (at least for the Bluesfest show). Still I wouldn't be surprised (or upset) if we see Eddy Rayner play some part in the future of the band.

In terms of who’ll be drumming, here are a few guesses (ordered in terms of probability): Elroy / Mick Fleetwood / Joey Waronker / Rob Hirst (Midnight Oil) / Glenn Kotche (Wilco) / Matt Eccles ( Betchadupa drummer who played with Tim once upon a time) / other lesser known session player / Matt Sherrod

Tim will very likely make an appearance at the show, and I think that because Mitchell Froom is in the mix, and Mark being gone, Tim will likely be involved in the future of the band. CH v3.0 is perhaps Woodface 2 or the evolution of a 3rd Finn Brothers project. Also, having Tim in the band would cover the harmonies and rhythm guitars.

If I’m wrong about Tim’s long-term role in the new band, then they’ll definitely need another guitarist, so while I’m on roll, here are my guesses of who that part might go to (again ordered from most probable to least likely): Liam / Mike Campbell / Johnny Marr / Jim Moginie / Don McGlashan / Connan Mockasin-Lawrence Arabia or any other of Liam’s cohorts.

One final conspiracy theory (why not) involves Sheryl Crow, Bic Runga, and/or Lisa Germano or someone accomplished in their own right (Johny Marr and some of the other names above fit into this category). The logic being, with the whole Fleetwood Mac thing Neil has seen firsthand how merging two legacies draws the attention of the media and ultimately sells tickets for shows that would otherwise go mostly unnoticed (except for hardcore fans).

Regardless of what/when we find out, my curiosity is firing on all cylinders and I’m very excited (similar to how I felt in 2006/2007 when we first heard about CH v2.0).

As Neil mentioned during his radio show last night, the key will be to TRUST (as we should) that he AND NICK, know what they’re doing. They know how to protect the CH legacy and wouldn’t (intentionally) do anything to betray their fans.

Exciting times ahead...

Insane speculation! No facts known yet. Maybe Mark asked to be paid something daft to do it, and that's why Neil said no. Let's wait to hear all sides.

And obviously it'll be Lindsey Buckingham on guitar. 

In fairness to @BRANDO BRANDT, the comment wasn't posted as confirmed news or anything. No one knows the full story at this point, and everything is speculation and theorising. I thought it was a really interesting post and raised some interesting points and ideas.

Obviously I'm shocked at this news and can't argue too much with what @stuartjb said in his opening post.

Except for the few facts we know for sure, it’s ALL fun/compulsive speculation.

😁

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

Except for the few facts we know for sure, it’s ALL fun/compulsive speculation.

😁

Mark not being there isn’t speculation .

stuartjb posted:

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

Except for the few facts we know for sure, it’s ALL fun/compulsive speculation.

😁

Mark not being there isn’t speculation .

... which makes it one of the few known facts I’m referring to in my previous post.

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

stuartjb posted:

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

Except for the few facts we know for sure, it’s ALL fun/compulsive speculation.

😁

Mark not being there isn’t speculation .

... which makes it one of the few known facts I’m referring to in my previous post.

And for me , that’s the main fact .

Can someone please explain everything to me, I'm very confused.

PH, I don't know what any of this means.

What Mark Hart wrote on twitter was as follows:
"Hello All, I feel it’s time to let you all know that Neil has informed me that I will not be a part of the band’s new lineup. Being a part of Crowded House for 30 years was a pleasure and a privilege. I wish them well and hope you all enjoy the new band.
Best to you all,
Mark"

This is remarkable news. I'm somewhat in shock and feel extremely sorry for Mark. In my humble opinion (FWIW) he's been shoddily treated by Neil for a great many years. As much as Neil can often be extremely gracious and humble - and is clearly well-liked by a great many people - I think the way he's treated Mark over most of CH's career has been a real blot on his record. 

I will, of course, continue to show an interest in everything he does but he seems keen to chip away at the CH legacy with every turn. 

What can I say?  In my opinion, Mark made what I consider to be an essential contribution to the sound of Together Alone, which is my favorite album ever.  Yes, they’re Neil’s songs, but it was the combination of Neil and Nick and Mark and Paul that brought them to life.  

I would be more accepting of this if it was Mark who decided to bow out, but his tweet seems to make it clear that it was Neil’s decision.

Perhaps the “new Crowded House” will create some great new music, but they should find another name because it ain’t Crowded House!

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

brownie posted:

What can I say?  In my opinion, Mark made what I consider to be an essential contribution to the sound of Together Alone, which is my favorite album ever.  Yes, they’re Neil’s songs, but it was the combination of Neil and Nick and Mark and Paul that brought them to life.  

I would be more accepting of this if it was Mark who decided to bow out, but his tweet seems to make it clear that it was Neil’s decision.

Perhaps the “new Crowded House” will create some great new music, but they should find another name because it ain’t Crowded House!

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

Absolutley spot on

stuartjb posted:

brownie posted:

What can I say?  In my opinion, Mark made what I consider to be an essential contribution to the sound of Together Alone, which is my favorite album ever.  Yes, they’re Neil’s songs, but it was the combination of Neil and Nick and Mark and Paul that brought them to life.  

I would be more accepting of this if it was Mark who decided to bow out, but his tweet seems to make it clear that it was Neil’s decision.

Perhaps the “new Crowded House” will create some great new music, but they should find another name because it ain’t Crowded House!

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

Absolutley spot on

Also here! If I may give individual credits for best album ever, Together Alone, it would be:

1. Neil Finn

2. Producer Youth

3. Mark Hart

I really dont know what is going on...still hope its a joke, or it would be changed...its just no good..

brownie posted

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

I hate to break it to you, but many bands do in fact become brands once they achieve a certain status and level of commercial success. 

This doesn’t happen because I personally want it to (so don’t make it personal), it happens because the music ‘industry’ works this way, and as fans we play an integral part in making this possible. Think The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, U2, Coldplay, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac and yes even our beloved Crowded House (just to name a few). These are brands that make millions of $’s whether it be on Royalties, Merchandise, Albums/Downloads or Concert tickets ( for those that actively tour).

So the idea that bands are simply in it for the love of music is very romantic but also naive. 

Make no mistake, Neil and Nick are (and deserve to be) looking to maximize the exposure and profit of their next project (whatever it may be).

Why shouldn’t they call it Crowded House? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to attempt to reach new audiences and achieve higher levels of commercial and critical success?

I find it funny how some fans become Uber-Purists who believe they know more and better, than the actual artists who’s  work they so passionately adore.

I get it, we’re all surprised, shocked even with this announcement. Nobody on this forum is happy to see Mark gone from the lineup, but lets wait until all the pieces fall into place and more information is disclosed, before we start questioning the integrity or motives of Neil Finn or Nick Seymour.

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

brownie posted

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

I hate to break it to you, but many bands do in fact become brands once they achieve a certain status and level of commercial success. 

This doesn’t happen because I personally want it to (so don’t make it personal), it happens because the music ‘industry’ works this way, and as fans we play an integral part in making this possible. Think The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, U2, Coldplay, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac and yes even our beloved Crowded House (just to name a few). These are brands that make millions of $’s whether it be on Royalties, Merchandise, Albums/Downloads or Concert tickets ( for those that actively tour).

So the idea that bands are simply in it for the love of music is very romantic but also naive. 

Make no mistake, Neil and Nick are (and deserve to be) looking to maximize the exposure and profit of their next project (whatever it may be).

Why shouldn’t they call it Crowded House? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to attempt to reach new audiences and achieve higher levels of commercial and critical success?

I find it funny how some fans become Uber-Purists who believe they know more and better, than the actual artists who’s  work they so passionately adore.

I get it, we’re all surprised, shocked even with this announcement. Nobody on this forum is happy to see Mark gone from the lineup, but lets wait until all the pieces fall into place and more information is disclosed, before we start questioning the integrity or motives of Neil Finn or Nick Seymour.

Neil and Nick can do whatever they want with their “brand”.  I don’t have to like it and I don’t have to follow along.

I’ve abandoned plenty of bands who have become brands over the many years I have been a music fan.  Fleetwood Mac among them.

I may be romantic, but I’m not naive.  And my music dollars will flow to those who are consistent with my ideals.  Trust me, there are plenty of them still around.

If one more person tells me to “trust Neil” I’m going to throw up. Yeah, I know there is more to this than we know, but gimme a break. Like we’re not supposed to question his decisions because he’s some kind of God. Come on, people. I question everything. It would be really nice to know WHY this all happened and whether or not it’s permanent or temporary. 

All I know is that this doesn’t feel like Crowded House to ME.

Havelin posted:

If one more person tells me to “trust Neil” I’m going to throw up. Yeah, I know there is more to this than we know, but gimme a break. Like we’re not supposed to question his decisions because he’s some kind of God. Come on, people. I question everything. It would be really nice to know WHY this all happened and whether or not it’s permanent or temporary. 

All I know is that this doesn’t feel like Crowded House to ME.

Well said ! Mark trusted Neil . How did that work out ?

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

brownie posted

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

I hate to break it to you, but many bands do in fact become brands once they achieve a certain status and level of commercial success. 

This doesn’t happen because I personally want it to (so don’t make it personal), it happens because the music ‘industry’ works this way, and as fans we play an integral part in making this possible. Think The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, U2, Coldplay, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac and yes even our beloved Crowded House (just to name a few). These are brands that make millions of $’s whether it be on Royalties, Merchandise, Albums/Downloads or Concert tickets ( for those that actively tour).

So the idea that bands are simply in it for the love of music is very romantic but also naive. 

Make no mistake, Neil and Nick are (and deserve to be) looking to maximize the exposure and profit of their next project (whatever it may be).

Why shouldn’t they call it Crowded House? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to attempt to reach new audiences and achieve higher levels of commercial and critical success?

I find it funny how some fans become Uber-Purists who believe they know more and better, than the actual artists who’s  work they so passionately adore.

I get it, we’re all surprised, shocked even with this announcement. Nobody on this forum is happy to see Mark gone from the lineup, but lets wait until all the pieces fall into place and more information is disclosed, before we start questioning the integrity or motives of Neil Finn or Nick Seymour.

Well it’s funny you should say that ! One person who has never seemed to maximise commercial potential at the expense of integrity is Neil - otherwise everything he ever did would have been called Crowded House , as EMI wanted him to do . 

Whats changed ? Does Neil ( or Nick ) need the money ?!

This is sad. I call it the Fleetwood Mac effect though. Fleetwood Mac are up to their 19th (and I think last, lineup). Crowded House are now onto their 6th. 

I don’t really understand the motivation, but my wild speculation is that this Fleetwood Mac tour will be the last. Stevie And Christine (and John) have no desire to make new music and are ready to retire but Mick Fleetwood wants to keep going. It could be what started out as Fleetwood Mac 19 morphs into Crowded House 6.

The band being Neil, Nick, Mitchell Froom, and Mick Fleetwood (perhaps with either Mike Campbell or Johnny Marr also coming on board).

I get the bringing of Mick Fleetwood in - he and Neil have become tight and Mick wanted Neil to be involved in making new Mac music. Apparently they have been working on ideas. Imagine the publicity if/when Fleetwood Mac call it a day to announce that Mick (and possibly Mike) will join Neil and Nick in a new Crowded House.

New music with that lineup is an exciting prospect (and we can debate whether it should be called CH or not).

(My wild speculation continues) I guess Neil felt that if Matt wasn’t going to be required, he may as well do a major shake-up. I really feel for Mark, but Crowded House has always been Neil’s band and maybe he sees an opportunity for one last shot for Crowded House to get recognition it never really got. It was on the verge on that when Neil broke it up (crushing Nicks hopes and dreams in the process). If the band were to include Fleetwood and Marr, it really would be recognized as a “super group”. Maybe now that Neil has had the Fleetwood Mac opportunity of playing massive arenas, he wants Nick to have the same. Maybe if Tim comes on board, he finally gets to live the dream he originally had for the Enz as well.

This is complete wild speculation though. For all we know, this is just for the one off gig, but I still don’t get why Mark would be cast aside unless there was a bigger picture at play.

Neither Tim or Neil have ever been sentimental in making decisions relating to the Enz or CH. Mark has always been a fan favorite (what is not to love about the guy?!), but out of 6 studio albums, he only really fully participated in 2 of them (Together Alone and Intriguer). 

I have no doubt that Neil would have made the decision for creative not personal reasons. Maybe he has a clear vision for one last version of Crowded House, and musically Mark just didn’t fit. Together Alone was a masterpiece, and maybe with Mark in the band, it felt like a burden of making the the magic happen again. They tried with Intriguer and maybe Neil felt that something didn’t work right in the studio second time around (that album took forever to get finished and arguably the best song versions didn’t make the album) and Mark is the scapegoat.

I am clutching at straws here trying to find a positive but it makes no sense to drop Mark if CH’s future is just one off gigs (the band have never sounded better than they did at the Sydney Opera House gigs). Maybe it is due to the musical direction Neil wants a new CH album to go down and he sees Mitchell Froom as more important to the classic Crowded House sound than Mark Hart...

Alternatively Neil, may also being merging the family band with Crowded House and we get Neil, Nick, Mitchell, Liam and Elroy. I kind of understand it (but don’t agree with it or like it) for one off shows. But why get Mark and Matt over to NZ for rehearsals etc... for just one gig, when Neil can practice with the family and he has Mitchell Froom over in NZ anyway finishing off the secret new Finn Brothers album that has been happening in the background...

I guess only time will tell..

Whysus posted:

This is sad. I call it the Fleetwood Mac effect though. Fleetwood Mac are up to their 19th (and I think last, lineup). Crowded House are now onto their 6th. 

I don’t really understand the motivation, but my wild speculation is that this Fleetwood Mac tour will be the last. Stevie And Christine (and John) have no desire to make new music and are ready to retire but Mick Fleetwood wants to keep going. It could be what started out as Fleetwood Mac 19 morphs into Crowded House 6.

The band being Neil, Nick, Mitchell Froom, and Mick Fleetwood (perhaps with either Mike Campbell or Johnny Marr also coming on board).

I get the bringing of Mick Fleetwood in - he and Neil have become tight and Mick wanted Neil to be involved in making new Mac music. Apparently they have been working on ideas. Imagine the publicity if/when Fleetwood Mac call it a day to announce that Mick (and possibly Mike) will join Neil and Nick in a new Crowded House.

New music with that lineup is an exciting prospect (and we can debate whether it should be called CH or not).

(My wild speculation continues) I guess Neil felt that if Matt wasn’t going to be required, he may as well do a major shake-up. I really feel for Mark, but Crowded House has always been Neil’s band and maybe he sees an opportunity for one last shot for Crowded House to get recognition it never really got. It was on the verge on that when Neil broke it up (crushing Nicks hopes and dreams in the process). If the band were to include Fleetwood and Marr, it really would be recognized as a “super group”. Maybe now that Neil has had the Fleetwood Mac opportunity of playing massive arenas, he wants Nick to have the same. Maybe if Tim comes on board, he finally gets to live the dream he originally had for the Enz as well.

This is complete wild speculation though. For all we know, this is just for the one off gig, but I still don’t get why Mark would be cast aside unless there was a bigger picture at play.

Neither Tim or Neil have ever been sentimental in making decisions relating to the Enz or CH. Mark has always been a fan favorite (what is not to love about the guy?!), but out of 6 studio albums, he only really fully participated in 2 of them (Together Alone and Intriguer). 

I have no doubt that Neil would have made the decision for creative not personal reasons. Maybe he has a clear vision for one last version of Crowded House, and musically Mark just didn’t fit. Together Alone was a masterpiece, and maybe with Mark in the band, it felt like a burden of making the the magic happen again. They tried with Intriguer and maybe Neil felt that something didn’t work right in the studio second time around (that album took forever to get finished and arguably the best song versions didn’t make the album) and Mark is the scapegoat.

I am clutching at straws here trying to find a positive but it makes no sense to drop Mark if CH’s future is just one off gigs (the band have never sounded better than they did at the Sydney Opera House gigs). Maybe it is due to the musical direction Neil wants a new CH album to go down and he sees Mitchell Froom as more important to the classic Crowded House sound than Mark Hart...

Alternatively Neil, may also being merging the family band with Crowded House and we get Neil, Nick, Mitchell, Liam and Elroy. I kind of understand it (but don’t agree with it or like it) for one off shows. But why get Mark and Matt over to NZ for rehearsals etc... for just one gig, when Neil can practice with the family and he has Mitchell Froom over in NZ anyway finishing off the secret new Finn Brothers album that has been happening in the background...

I guess only time will tell..

Good post . CH with Fleetwood Campbell and Marr horrifies me . Adding his sons only slightly less so . 

Itll be Liam and Elroy , hence no need for Mark and Matt . Hugely dissapointing .

Mariola posted:

stuartjb posted:

brownie posted:

What can I say?  In my opinion, Mark made what I consider to be an essential contribution to the sound of Together Alone, which is my favorite album ever.  Yes, they’re Neil’s songs, but it was the combination of Neil and Nick and Mark and Paul that brought them to life.  

I would be more accepting of this if it was Mark who decided to bow out, but his tweet seems to make it clear that it was Neil’s decision.

Perhaps the “new Crowded House” will create some great new music, but they should find another name because it ain’t Crowded House!

A band is not a brand.  Ugh at the thought.

Absolutley spot on

Also here! If I may give individual credits for best album ever, Together Alone, it would be:

1. Neil Finn

2. Producer Youth

3. Mark Hart

I’d put Mark ahead of youth 

Paul H posted:

This is remarkable news. I'm somewhat in shock and feel extremely sorry for Mark. In my humble opinion (FWIW) he's been shoddily treated by Neil for a great many years. As much as Neil can often be extremely gracious and humble - and is clearly well-liked by a great many people - I think the way he's treated Mark over most of CH's career has been a real blot on his record. 

I will, of course, continue to show an interest in everything he does but he seems keen to chip away at the CH legacy with every turn. 

I couldn’t have summed up my own feelings  better if I’d tried . 

It’s a little confusing how Neil says on Fangradio that Mark “will not be joining us for these shows.” That seems like an intentionally open-ended phrasing. Maybe he’s just being oblique out of politeness, rather than bluntly saying “I’ve sacked him.” It’s just a notable contrast from Mark’s posting which really seems like he’s out of the band for good.

I’m really disappointed to hear this, in any case. Mark is great and a huge part of the CH story. I just hope he’s not going to fill parts in with Liam and Elroy...no offense to them, they’re really solid and talented. It just seems like CH is the last of Neil’s projects to be a distinct entity from his family (I know Liam has played with them but it was as a utility guy) and I hope that remains true.

All I know about the subject is what I have read on here, but the first thing I thought was Mark had his tongue in his cheek when he tweeted. Maybe Mark couldn't make it because of prior commitments and he was alluding to the kerfuffle around Neil's inclusion in Fleetwood Mac when he claimed he had been sacked. 

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

So the idea that bands are simply in it for the love of music is very romantic but also naive. 

Make no mistake, Neil and Nick are (and deserve to be) looking to maximize the exposure and profit of their next project (whatever it may be).

Why shouldn’t they call it Crowded House? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to attempt to reach new audiences and achieve higher levels of commercial and critical success?

I find it funny how some fans become Uber-Purists who believe they know more and better, than the actual artists who’s  work they so passionately adore.

Personally, I don't see it as "knowing more" or being naive. Music is a commodity, but it also has the capacity to stir emotions. It isn't just product. And I think its mildly patronising to those who invested their emotions heavily in the work of any band to call them naive when they complain at how that band's reputation is being used.

I don't know the legal side of things. I strongly suspect that once Capitol's original deal with Crowded House (to which Neil, Paul and Nick were signatories) ended, Neil took sole ownership of the band name. As a result, I suspect that anyone (including Nick) is now merely a salaried employee of Neil's. In that situation, it's clearly Neil's call as to who is in (or out) of CH.

But there's a wider point here: CH generated a massive amount of goodwill among its fanbase. Goodwill that has sustained Neil's solo career far longer than that of many of his contemporaries. And that goodwill was generated as much by the personality and musical ability of the other members of CH as it was by Neil and his songwriting. Neil acknowledged that back in 1998 when he refused to continue to use the band name for his solo work. It was something I was immensely grateful to him for doing, because it also acknowledged the he was aware of the emotional connection the band had made with people like me.

His decision to release Time on Earth as a CH album and now his decision to just jettison MH suggests to me that Neil has long since disregarded the special connection he, Nick, Paul and Mark made with their fanbase. And that saddens me.

Of course, from a practical point of view, I'm not sure what else he can do. If he wants to work with Nick, his choice is to either rehearse a show's worth of material that will be new to Nick (and which, of course, Neil quite publicly chose not to work with him on in the first place) or rehearse and play CH songs. And if Neil and Nick are on stage playing CH songs, well, it would be bizarre not to bill the band as CH...

I might get flak for saying this. On the positive outlook: Neil must have the idea to inject more life in the band possibly with more youth or enthusiasm...make Crowded House come alive more in shows and on record. I really like Mark Hart as a musician and person (he was really nice and genuine when meeting him at the Winnipeg show). The thing I found was the missing element of more enthusiasm and crowded house craziness that left with the passing of Paul Hester. I found that Mark had the missing element of being more enthusiastic/energetic..being more reserved of the many many musicians I have seen over the decades. Matt being so what the same. Especially for Crowded House, I feel it takes away from a big element of what the band has been about. That aspect brought by Paul will never be replaced but can be somewhat brought back more. Neil’s sons might fill that role in spades...and be probably be just as or more adept musicians too. 

I agree with "more energy" and possibly Neil not having to do all the entertainment between songs on his own.

Still disagree with his sons being able to bring that (possibly because they just wouldn't be equals, not sure). 

As far as any "legal" side goes... well I'm not sure if this a legal thing exactly, but I think Neil is the band leader.

The more I think about this, the more I think there has to be something more going on. It makes no sense to dismiss Mark and replace him with Mitchell Froom. Froom is first and foremost a producer, not a band member (particularly for a one off concert).

You wouldn’t specifically bring Froom in for a live performance ahead of Mark. It makes no sense unless Neil had already planned to be doing something with Froom at that time. 

(Wild speculation time again) That makes me think that there may be a Froom produced Crowded House album planned. We already know that Froom doesn’t consider Mark to be a key ingredient to the classic CH sound. He didn’t want him for Woodface and then reduced his involvement in the Recurring Dream tracks. 

Maybe Neil and Froom got discussing the prospect of working together on a new CH album (potentially after a planned FM one with Froom fell through again). Froom once again told Neil that he didn’t see Mark being required. Mark either needs to be 100% in the band, or out altogether - you can’t deny him being an active participant in a new album then just roll him out for concerts. Neil could of said that if Froom wanted Mark out for the album then he would have to replace Mark on live performances himself.

Again, just speculation... But it is hard to make sense of this.

This does raise an interesting question though, who is more important to the essence of Crowded House - Hart or Froom?

Froom was largely responsible for shaping the original CH sound (going back to StuartJB’s Beatles analogy - he was the George Martin) with the first 3 albums. 

Hart became a full member for Together Alone onwards when Froom has no involvement.

It’s seems that you can either have Hart or Froom involved with CH but not both for whatever reason (I am guessing, creative differences). It looks like Neil has gone with Froom.

Again, this makes no sense unless there is an album at play. If Neil and Nick wanted to perform together and bill it as CH without getting Mark and Matt onboard, Neil could have grabbed Eddie Rayner, Elroy or any number of others who have been in or around CH in the past and who would be in the Southern Hemisphere at the time. 

I am still confused by it and just trying to make some sense. It is one thing to play with Nick for a gig in Aussie, call it CH, not include the guys who weren’t part of the original band and grab some fill ins (be it family or friends), but it is another thing to fly in a Producer from America who was so instrumental in the first 3 albums, and have him play the gig at the expense of the guy who he doesn’t rate, despite being an integral member since 1993.

I can only see the logic if there is a new Mitchell Froom produced album on the horizon.

What would everyone's "ideal" new lineup be?

That's a tough question, because I would start with the drummer.  The only perfect candidate is not available.

Next, why doesn't Matt sit right with me?  I don't think it's his playing, necessarily; I think it's the production.  Listen to "There Goes God" from the live CD and tell me you've ever heard anything remotely like that from Matt.  Given the sound of everything in the last 10 years, I have to believe that's all Neil's choice.

That leads me to believe that Neil doesn't want "Crowded House" to be "Crowded House", and so we have to either accept what he does want, or just listen to our old bootlegs.

Another positive to this whole thing is that Neil still is serious about Crowded House and making the band be still relevant.  St his age, most artists would just go with the flow and what is comfy. It looks like he wants to take the band to a higher level or else he wouldn’t make a change again. I for one found Intriguer sounding somewhat stale and too over produced...a sound of a band sounding old and not relevant. Sone good stuff on there for sure but I want something with more life/raw and rocking at times. And not sounding over produced. I hope it is going to go in that direction with this change. Like someone said, Neil may have seen what he can do for Fleetwood Mac and thought Crowded House need a good shot in the arm too. Probably thinks this is one last shot at this to get it right...especially now that more people have heard of him and his music. 

stuartjb posted:

Imagine the scenario in 1995 . Paul - “ hey George , we’ve got this John Lennon Demo they want us to finish off to make a final recording . I hope you don’t mind , but me and Ringo have decided we are going to get Carlos Santana to play on it instead of you . Youre my dear friend and I love you - hope you understand “ ... 🙄

I’ve been thinking about this analogy after seeing Froom as George Martin in a Beatles/CH comparison. I struggle to see Mark as George though as unlike Mark, George had been a Beatle from the very start.

I think it might be more like if Billy Preston was made an official Beatle for Let It Be and the album ended up being the best thing the Beatles did. Spector got a fair bit of the credit for the new sound but having Preston on keys was seen as a really cool development for the Beatles and the fans loved him because he was so quiet and humble. The Beatles then still broke up after the album.

After John’s death, the Beatles reformed and made another couple of albums in the 80s (without George Martin or Phil Spector) and Billy played a significant part on the albums and on stage at the gigs. He didn’t just do keys anymore, he was a multi instrumentalist who could also cover Johns backing vocals. Now it was hard to imagine the Beatles without him. But Paul and George’s solo careers were at the fore, and they described the Beatles as a beautiful old car up in blocks that they could get down when they wanted.

Then in 1995, Paul and George found a John demo and went to George Martin and said how about we get together with Ringo and Billy and finish it. George Martin says “great idea, but we don’t need Billy for this.” Paul then tells Billy “George wants to take the band back to its roots like when he produced us - I’m really excited about doing that, so sorry you are no longer a Beatle”...

The fans were outraged because Billy had still been a big contributor to their greatest album (some would say more do than Spector) and had been a key member of the band since John’s death. The remaining Beatles and George Martin would need to make something pretty magical to be worth sacrificing Billy...

If its a different drummer how about Phil Selway if he's avaialble?

My point was, it doesn't matter who the drummer is if Neil is going to apply Pajama Club style production to everything he does.

Would love Pajama Club style production...that is what Crowded House needs. That PJ album is the closest thing to the genius of Together Alone that Neil has created. 

I predict that this will be an evolution of Crowdies 2.0, which was an evolution of Crowdies 1.0. Which I'm fine with.

renzo posted:

Would love Pajama Club style production...that is what Crowded House needs. That PJ album is the closest thing to the genius of Together Alone that Neil has created. 

So make another Pajama club album then ! 

Grief ...

Paul H posted:

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

So the idea that bands are simply in it for the love of music is very romantic but also naive. 

Make no mistake, Neil and Nick are (and deserve to be) looking to maximize the exposure and profit of their next project (whatever it may be).

Why shouldn’t they call it Crowded House? Why shouldn’t they be allowed to attempt to reach new audiences and achieve higher levels of commercial and critical success?

I find it funny how some fans become Uber-Purists who believe they know more and better, than the actual artists who’s  work they so passionately adore.

Personally, I don't see it as "knowing more" or being naive. Music is a commodity, but it also has the capacity to stir emotions. It isn't just product. And I think its mildly patronising to those who invested their emotions heavily in the work of any band to call them naive when they complain at how that band's reputation is being used.

I don't know the legal side of things. I strongly suspect that once Capitol's original deal with Crowded House (to which Neil, Paul and Nick were signatories) ended, Neil took sole ownership of the band name. As a result, I suspect that anyone (including Nick) is now merely a salaried employee of Neil's. In that situation, it's clearly Neil's call as to who is in (or out) of CH.

But there's a wider point here: CH generated a massive amount of goodwill among its fanbase. Goodwill that has sustained Neil's solo career far longer than that of many of his contemporaries. And that goodwill was generated as much by the personality and musical ability of the other members of CH as it was by Neil and his songwriting. Neil acknowledged that back in 1998 when he refused to continue to use the band name for his solo work. It was something I was immensely grateful to him for doing, because it also acknowledged the he was aware of the emotional connection the band had made with people like me.

His decision to release Time on Earth as a CH album and now his decision to just jettison MH suggests to me that Neil has long since disregarded the special connection he, Nick, Paul and Mark made with their fanbase. And that saddens me.

Of course, from a practical point of view, I'm not sure what else he can do. If he wants to work with Nick, his choice is to either rehearse a show's worth of material that will be new to Nick (and which, of course, Neil quite publicly chose not to work with him on in the first place) or rehearse and play CH songs. And if Neil and Nick are on stage playing CH songs, well, it would be bizarre not to bill the band as CH...

 

Why bother calling it Crowded House then ?

I think the idea of Crowded House being a band (they way some here think of it) ended in 1996. The reality is that perhaps Mark and Matt were both salaried members who do not have the same level of control that say Neil and Nick have. 

I'd have been very happy for Crowded House to be Neil, Nick, Mark and Matt but am happier that an iteration of Crowded House that has Neil and Nick will be performing next year and that is something to be looking forward to and excited about.

Mark's message was clear that he had been told that he was not going to be part of the next phase. He seemed gracious and appreciative and offered a nice message. Neil equally described Mark the other night as a good friend. For me there is nothing more to say based on what we have been told.

Why do we need to know what else may or may not be happening or what may or may not have been said? Its easy to think badly of something or look for the negative side of things but we probably don't know what had gone on or the conversations that arrived at the announcements.

Looking forward to plenty in 2020 from Crowded House; Neil, Nick, Mitchell and whoever else is involved. 

Monsieur Nick posted:

I think the idea of Crowded House being a band (they way some here think of it) ended in 1996. The reality is that perhaps Mark and Matt were both salaried members who do not have the same level of control that say Neil and Nick have. 

I'd have been very happy for Crowded House to be Neil, Nick, Mark and Matt but am happier that an iteration of Crowded House that has Neil and Nick will be performing next year and that is something to be looking forward to and excited about.

Mark's message was clear that he had been told that he was not going to be part of the next phase. He seemed gracious and appreciative and offered a nice message. Neil equally described Mark the other night as a good friend. For me there is nothing more to say based on what we have been told.

Why do we need to know what else may or may not be happening or what may or may not have been said? Its easy to think badly of something or look for the negative side of things but we probably don't know what had gone on or the conversations that arrived at the announcements.

Looking forward to plenty in 2020 from Crowded House; Neil, Nick, Mitchell and whoever else is involved. 

 

 

 

 

Mark was not happy at all , but what was he supposed to say ?! He’s a very decent man after all . 

You are entitled to your opinion , but if this notion that Mark is ok with this  is making Neil’s plans sit with you easier , then I think you are sadly mistaken . 

stuartjb posted:

Monsieur Nick posted:

I think the idea of Crowded House being a band (they way some here think of it) ended in 1996. The reality is that perhaps Mark and Matt were both salaried members who do not have the same level of control that say Neil and Nick have. 

I'd have been very happy for Crowded House to be Neil, Nick, Mark and Matt but am happier that an iteration of Crowded House that has Neil and Nick will be performing next year and that is something to be looking forward to and excited about.

Mark's message was clear that he had been told that he was not going to be part of the next phase. He seemed gracious and appreciative and offered a nice message. Neil equally described Mark the other night as a good friend. For me there is nothing more to say based on what we have been told.

Why do we need to know what else may or may not be happening or what may or may not have been said? Its easy to think badly of something or look for the negative side of things but we probably don't know what had gone on or the conversations that arrived at the announcements.

Looking forward to plenty in 2020 from Crowded House; Neil, Nick, Mitchell and whoever else is involved. 

 

 

 

 

Mark was not happy at all , but what was he supposed to say ?! He’s a very decent man after all . 

You are entitled to your opinion , but if this notion that Mark is ok with this  is making Neil’s plans sit with you easier , then I think you are sadly mistaken . 

What makes you think Mark was unhappy? I'm not saying he was happy, I'm just saying there's nothing to be read for or against in the tweet.

It's hard to imagine CH, especially live, without Mark but let's not be under any illusions CH is anything other than Neil's band.

Personally I just hope it doesn't turn into another Finn family project. I'm sure it's all nice and lovely for Neil to record and tour with his wife & kids but Neil hasn't made a decent album since he started getting the family involved in literally everything.

Stuart "Mark was not happy at all , but what was he supposed to say ?! He’s a very decent man after all . 

You are entitled to your opinion , but if this notion that Mark is ok with this  is making Neil’s plans sit with you easier , then I think you are sadly mistaken."

Stuart, 

Unless you know Mark personally (and I welcome being corrected), he has not expressed his feelings other than to wish everyone well. I am not going to look for or guess at a hidden meaning in the tweet... I mean do the 1st letters in each sentence spell out a secret message that only you can see?

We would all have probably preferred for Mark to be involved but it is nothing to do with us. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that privately that Mark is maybe disappointed with the decision but equally not surprised as he has more class than to throw a tantrum about it, you can do that for him.

What is clear is that you personally are not happy about this. You will have the opportunity to Skype Neil in the coming days or weeks and ask Neil directly the wheres and the whys if you have the bottle to do this.

For most of us, there will be a Crowded House to get behind and look forward to it. In reality, I am glad Neil has got Crowded House off the blocks and it all sits very nicely with me.

Monsieur Nick posted:

 

For most of us, there will be a Crowded House to get behind and look forward to it. 

“For most of us,” really?  That’s not what I’m seeing from posts both here and elsewhere.

I always look forward to new music from Neil, but a new band without a sacked Mark Hart should not be called Crowded House.  I don’t get behind that at all.

Sorry but Crowded House existed before Mark and is going to after this. He may well roll up on a record in the future. This is Crowded House. How many writing credits does Mark actually have? 

Many people have spoken about Together Alone and Mark's contribution here but what I have read and heard about Together Alone is that it was a time of great change within the band. TA is pretty much down to Neil, he wrote the songs, he found the place to record, he figured out who the producer should be. It was Neil (and family) who had decided to return to New Zealand as it was felt to be inspiring, home and they wanted to be there. This was his idea; he felt it was a good moment to call Mark more formally into the band. 

What do people think Mark has actually been doing for the last 10 years? He has a life, other projects and in the last decade, there has only been at best 6 weeks of Crowded House (in 2016 perhaps, rehearsing and readying for the Sydney shows). 

For me, I think both Mark and Matt are replaceable members of Crowded House probably as they are not original members. Thats for me anyway what makes it still Crowded House. To be honest, with Mitchell Froome being involved, he feels 'more crowded house' than either Mark or Matt. Personally, am hoping Liam is also involved next year, he is a great musician and has a great stage charm and presence. Things change and that is a nice thing, not something to be so upset about!

IainK posted:

It's hard to imagine CH, especially live, without Mark but let's not be under any illusions CH is anything other than Neil's band.

Personally I just hope it doesn't turn into another Finn family project. I'm sure it's all nice and lovely for Neil to record and tour with his wife & kids but Neil hasn't made a decent album since he started getting the family involved in literally everything.

Re his family involvement , I think you are about to be dissapointed . 

Monsieur Nick posted:

Stuart "Mark was not happy at all , but what was he supposed to say ?! He’s a very decent man after all . 

You are entitled to your opinion , but if this notion that Mark is ok with this  is making Neil’s plans sit with you easier , then I think you are sadly mistaken."

 

Stuart, 

Unless you know Mark personally (and I welcome being corrected), he has not expressed his feelings other than to wish everyone well. I am not going to look for or guess at a hidden meaning in the tweet... I mean do the 1st letters in each sentence spell out a secret message that only you can see?

We would all have probably preferred for Mark to be involved but it is nothing to do with us. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that privately that Mark is maybe disappointed with the decision but equally not surprised as he has more class than to throw a tantrum about it, you can do that for him.

What is clear is that you personally are not happy about this. You will have the opportunity to Skype Neil in the coming days or weeks and ask Neil directly the wheres and the whys if you have the bottle to do this.

For most of us, there will be a Crowded House to get behind and look forward to it. In reality, I am glad Neil has got Crowded House off the blocks and it all sits very nicely with me.

 

Re my comment about how Mark feels , I’m happy to stand by what I said . 

The Pineapple Head posted:

stuartjb posted:

Monsieur Nick posted:

I think the idea of Crowded House being a band (they way some here think of it) ended in 1996. The reality is that perhaps Mark and Matt were both salaried members who do not have the same level of control that say Neil and Nick have. 

I'd have been very happy for Crowded House to be Neil, Nick, Mark and Matt but am happier that an iteration of Crowded House that has Neil and Nick will be performing next year and that is something to be looking forward to and excited about.

Mark's message was clear that he had been told that he was not going to be part of the next phase. He seemed gracious and appreciative and offered a nice message. Neil equally described Mark the other night as a good friend. For me there is nothing more to say based on what we have been told.

Why do we need to know what else may or may not be happening or what may or may not have been said? Its easy to think badly of something or look for the negative side of things but we probably don't know what had gone on or the conversations that arrived at the announcements.

Looking forward to plenty in 2020 from Crowded House; Neil, Nick, Mitchell and whoever else is involved. 

 

 

 

 

Mark was not happy at all , but what was he supposed to say ?! He’s a very decent man after all . 

You are entitled to your opinion , but if this notion that Mark is ok with this  is making Neil’s plans sit with you easier , then I think you are sadly mistaken . 

What makes you think Mark was unhappy? I'm not saying he was happy, I'm just saying there's nothing to be read for or against in the tweet.

Would you be happy in Marks Shoes ?! 

He has too much class to make anything other than a dignified statement . I stand by what I said . 

Just to quote Mark's tweet;

"Hello All, I feel it’s time to let you all know that Neil has informed me that I will not be a part of the band’s new lineup. Being a part of Crowded House for 30 years was a pleasure and a privilege. I wish them well and hope you all enjoy the new band".

To re-iterate, there may be more to this. There might be details we are not privy to and don't need to know - If that is the case and who knows, they are none of our business. It may also be that this is nothing more than an ambition to just do something different. 

If I was Mark, I could imagine he may be disappointed, I could equally imagine that he might be glad to have been involved as he said and life will carry on happily. It really is between him and Neil and Nick. 

Just to be clear; I am happy and looking forward to a new iteration of Crowded House that contains the 2 remaining founder members and their producer. I welcome new participants who will help present Crowded House in 2020. I hope Liam will have a part in this as well.

I'm not in Mark's shoes so its kind of irrelevant. 

If you are not happy with what has happened to Mark, you can Skype Fangradio and ask Neil directly; why not do that? 

If I ring Fangradio, I will tell Neil how much I am looking forward to the possibility of Crowded House and hoping for shows in the UK!

Would you boycott seeing Crowded House over Mark not being part of the show? 

I myself would not boycott them. I'm too curious where this is going.

If we're interpreting tweets can I throw in Peter Green's? "Nice to hear from NF today, as always." My first reaction was "oh, so it can't be that bad". But maybe I'm wrong. 

No, I would not boycott solely because Mark got sacked.  But I need to see how this plays out and who the new members are before I decide if I will support the new band.

The Pineapple Head posted:

I predict that this will be an evolution of Crowdies 2.0, which was an evolution of Crowdies 1.0. Which I'm fine with.

The new lineup is actually more like Crowded House 7 --

1. pre-record deal with w/Craig Hooper

2. original album lineup

3. Tim joins

4. Tim leaves, Mark joins

5. Paul leaves, Peter Jones joins

6. Time on Earth lineup

7. whatever's happening now

Versions 2 and 4 tend to overshadow most of the rest for me, and many here seem to feel the same way.  But that requires you to conveniently forget how many changes there have really been.  I'm sorry to see Mark go, but I'm excited for whatever the new incarnation will be and it's not at all out of character for the band's history.

To me, the difference here is that - while all of those earlier changes were organic; that is, individual members chose to leave - in this case it appears that Neil has decided to force a change for change's sake. 

It occurred to me that, while rationally there is no reason why this would not be a legitimate move - I'd have accepted it more willingly had Mark chosen to leave - it comes down to my own view of what constitutes Crowded House. For the first three albums, it had a core of three members. When Paul chose to leave, in my mind the core three-man membership changed but remained a three-man core.

It would seem that, in Neil's mind, it didn't. It became a two-man core. That would also explain why he was happy for Time on Earth to be branded as a CH record (although it doesn't explain why it wasn't considered as such from the get-go and only became a CH album when Neil decided to reform the band by inviting Mark back!). Of course, Neil is human and can change his mind or hold contradictory views.

My only frustration in all of this is that it seems to take us ever further away from Neil's original intention of being respectful to the legacy of the band as it had been at the time it was first dissolved. Otherwise, Neil might as well have kept the name on for all his post-TA work.

Paul H posted:

To me, the difference here is that - while all of those earlier changes were organic; that is, individual members chose to leave - in this case it appears that Neil has decided to force a change for change's sake. 

It occurred to me that, while rationally there is no reason why this would not be a legitimate move - I'd have accepted it more willingly had Mark chosen to leave - it comes down to my own view of what constitutes Crowded House. For the first three albums, it had a core of three members. When Paul chose to leave, in my mind the core three-man membership changed but remained a three-man core.

It would seem that, in Neil's mind, it didn't. It became a two-man core. That would also explain why he was happy for Time on Earth to be branded as a CH record (although it doesn't explain why it wasn't considered as such from the get-go and only became a CH album when Neil decided to reform the band by inviting Mark back!). Of course, Neil is human and can change his mind or hold contradictory views.

My only frustration in all of this is that it seems to take us ever further away from Neil's original intention of being respectful to the legacy of the band as it had been at the time it was first dissolved. Otherwise, Neil might as well have kept the name on for all his post-TA work.

This in an absolute nutshell . 

Carefull saying this on any of the Finn facebook pages ! At best many just wont get it . At worst they’ll hurl childish insults at you ...

I've been thinking about this the last day or so and can sum up my thoughts accordingly: i strongly disagree with the decision, but it's Neil's band in much the same way another band leader like Tony Iommi, Lemmy Kilmister, Nick Cave, Billy Corgan, or Anthony Kiedis can decide to push forward with or without certain members. 

Yes, I know I have cited musical examples that are mostly worlds apart from Crowded House, but they are the most fitting examples by  comparison in terms of band structure. I've purposely avoided examples that are more sonically comparable examples because the ones I had in mind don't quite structurally compare.

Point being, it's his baby irrespective of how I feel. 

Why do I think it happened? I don't think it's personal. Not at all. 

I have a feeling it either came down to money (as it does with MANY bands), creative reasons (not sure what but...the fact Mark is being replaced with another musician allows for this possibility) or geographical logistics. 

Regarding the latter; yes, I know Nick lives in Ireland but i'd say he travels out to Australia and NZ more often than Mark or Matt. I remember Neil tweeting a long while back where he wished the guys lived closer so he could work with them more often. Perhaps Neil has found a way for CH to be more of a regularity by replacing a musician who may have less qualms with long distance travel even for short stints. Perhaps he wanted someone who could answer the call on demand where Mark was unable to this time around and Neil felt this could be an issue moving forward on a more regular basis. Keeping in mind, the poster for Blues Fest have Crowded House's appearance being billed as "Exclusive Australian Performances" below their name in brackets. Maybe Mark just couldn't make the gig and Neil needed a musician but didn't want to risk Mark not being available in 2021? 

Again, all speculation on my part. Either way, it's very sad news for me as Private Universe and Fingers Of Love ALWAYS sounded its best when performed with Crowded House. Yes, Mark's presence were a significant part of why these two particular tracks resonated in a live setting. 

I have a question, and dont know where to put it but here; do we know for sure that Matt was also "sacked", or its just our/someones thinking/prediction?

Matt's role has had no confirmation. 

I think some have surmised that Matt won't be there on the basis that Neil said, during his podcast, that he looks forward to working with Nick. 

Meanwhile...I suppose you could say Matt's silence is deafening but, at the same time, I don't think he's one to really stay afloat on social networking media. I remember, after Intriguer, some had speculated he was out of the band because of how quiet he is on Social Media. 

Until you hear otherwise, Matt is still in the band and he's been silent many a time before now. 

Whysus posted:

The more I think about this, the more I think there has to be something more going on. It makes no sense to dismiss Mark and replace him with Mitchell Froom. Froom is first and foremost a producer, not a band member (particularly for a one off concert).

You wouldn’t specifically bring Froom in for a live performance ahead of Mark. It makes no sense unless Neil had already planned to be doing something with Froom at that time. 

(Wild speculation time again) That makes me think that there may be a Froom produced Crowded House album planned. We already know that Froom doesn’t consider Mark to be a key ingredient to the classic CH sound. He didn’t want him for Woodface and then reduced his involvement in the Recurring Dream tracks. 

Maybe Neil and Froom got discussing the prospect of working together on a new CH album (potentially after a planned FM one with Froom fell through again). Froom once again told Neil that he didn’t see Mark being required. Mark either needs to be 100% in the band, or out altogether - you can’t deny him being an active participant in a new album then just roll him out for concerts. Neil could of said that if Froom wanted Mark out for the album then he would have to replace Mark on live performances himself.

Again, just speculation... But it is hard to make sense of this.

This does raise an interesting question though, who is more important to the essence of Crowded House - Hart or Froom?

Froom was largely responsible for shaping the original CH sound (going back to StuartJB’s Beatles analogy - he was the George Martin) with the first 3 albums. 

Hart became a full member for Together Alone onwards when Froom has no involvement.

It’s seems that you can either have Hart or Froom involved with CH but not both for whatever reason (I am guessing, creative differences). It looks like Neil has gone with Froom.

Again, this makes no sense unless there is an album at play. If Neil and Nick wanted to perform together and bill it as CH without getting Mark and Matt onboard, Neil could have grabbed Eddie Rayner, Elroy or any number of others who have been in or around CH in the past and who would be in the Southern Hemisphere at the time. 

I am still confused by it and just trying to make some sense. It is one thing to play with Nick for a gig in Aussie, call it CH, not include the guys who weren’t part of the original band and grab some fill ins (be it family or friends), but it is another thing to fly in a Producer from America who was so instrumental in the first 3 albums, and have him play the gig at the expense of the guy who he doesn’t rate, despite being an integral member since 1993.

I can only see the logic if there is a new Mitchell Froom produced album on the horizon.

From all wild guesses, imaginations, predictions, this sound most logic for me.. I can go with that..question really is - who is more important for sound of CH in 2020s, Froom or Mark? To be honest, Marks magic didnt sparkle at all on 4 songs on TOE (tnx to so-so production of S. Lillywhite), and almost didnt sparkle on Intriguer, again because of production... on the other hand, live perfomances of Either side of the World showed Marks magic exactly like I/we have loved it.. Froom is now in his 60s, if I am correct, and dont blame me for "ageism", but I am not sure that producer in this stage of life could give some new/old/new sound to the band...we ll see what ll become of all of that, if there will be anything exept this one concert.. but, still very sory for Mark been sacked, and because his words on twitter sounded like farewell to CH for all, not just for this one stand... 

If it’s Neil, Nick and your Mum on bongo’s, it’s still Crowded House 😄

In early 1989, after a tour of Australia and Canada, Finn fired Seymour from Crowded House. According to music journalist, Ed Nimmervoll, Seymour's departure was due to Finn blaming him for causing the latter's writer's block. However Finn cited "artistic differences" as the reason. Seymour said that after a month apart, he contacted Finn and they agreed that he would return to the band. He subsequently stayed with the group until their disbandment in 1996.

I was saddened to hear the news today. Although there have been line up changes along the way, Crowded House has always felt more than Neil Finn + invited session musicians. If it's a one off date, maybe it doesn't make sense for Mark to be involved (didn't some reunion Split Enz gigs not involve Nigel Griggs?).

Also, another of my favourite bands are Squeeze. They've had more line up changes then Enz and House combined. Even since they reformed in 2007, two bass players have been and gone (one of them being from the classic 1979 - 82 line up).

The latest version touring the States at the moment has morphed to a 7 piece, complete with percussionist and lap steel player. The tour is getting rave reviews and it very much still is Squeeze. So maybe too early to write off Crowded House mk whatever number this is yet.

Of course very sad for and will miss Mark Hart being part of it.

Very, very sad about this. I love Mark's playing and the contributions he has made, particularly to live performances.

I totally get that it's Neil's band at the end of the day, but I echo others when I say that I always thought the alchemy of Crowded House was something special, something beyond Neil + session players. I say that as someone who's seen Neil perform live in every incarnation of his career. 

I'll refrain from further speculation until we know the full picture, but it is something of a sucker punch. Excited that it looks like there's upcoming CH activity, but also a little sad. 

In one of Neil's recent newsletters he referred to Crowded House as a "brand" rather than a band. I had assumed it was a typo, but clearly it wasn't.  

Bevster posted:

Very, very sad about this. I love Mark's playing and the contributions he has made, particularly to live performances.

I totally get that it's Neil's band at the end of the day, but I echo others when I say that I always thought the alchemy of Crowded House was something special, something beyond Neil + session players. I say that as someone who's seen Neil perform live in every incarnation of his career. 

I'll refrain from further speculation until we know the full picture, but it is something of a sucker punch. Excited that it looks like there's upcoming CH activity, but also a little sad. 

In one of Neil's recent newsletters he referred to Crowded House as a "brand" rather than a band. I had assumed it was a typo, but clearly it wasn't.  

Sums it up perfectly for me

Neil seems to have changed his tune .

slowpogo posted:

It’s a little confusing how Neil says on Fangradio that Mark “will not be joining us for these shows.” That seems like an intentionally open-ended phrasing. Maybe he’s just being oblique out of politeness, rather than bluntly saying “I’ve sacked him.” It’s just a notable contrast from Mark’s posting which really seems like he’s out of the band for good.

I’m really disappointed to hear this, in any case. Mark is great and a huge part of the CH story. I just hope he’s not going to fill parts in with Liam and Elroy...no offense to them, they’re really solid and talented. It just seems like CH is the last of Neil’s projects to be a distinct entity from his family (I know Liam has played with them but it was as a utility guy) and I hope that remains true.

I think you will be proved right , and I completley agree with all you have said .

As it says above, if its Neil, Nick and mum on bongo's its still Crowded House. 

I am appreciative of Mark and his part in the band, Matt too; I was particularly keen on the era of Crowded House 2007+ but am open minded to a Crowded House 2020+. 

I understand all that people say about bands but Crowded House probably stopped being that sort of band in 1996. As others have mentioned, there are lots of other bands that operate with founder members and interchanging support members. 

As for 2020, I am hoping I will be able to see Crowded House with 2 of the 3 original members. I look forward to new players bringing something different to the show.

Does anyone plan to boycott the shows because Mark isn't going to be there?

IMO - any version of Crowded House in 2020 is better than NO version of Crowded House in 2020.

Respectfully to everyone who's played a part (big or small) in the story of Crowded House (and there are so many great people who sadly won't show up in the next chapter),  I'm very excited ... then again I'm a 'Glass Half Full Person'.

Too much negative in the world; let's enjoy happiness and if you cant (some people are wired differently) then don't ruin it for the rest of us.

BRANDO BRANDT posted:

IMO - any version of Crowded House in 2020 is better than NO version of Crowded House in 2020.

Respectfully to everyone who's played a part (big or small) in the story of Crowded House (and there are so many great people who sadly won't show up in the next chapter),  I'm very excited ... then again I'm a 'Glass Half Full Person'.

Too much negative in the world; let's enjoy happiness and if you cant (some people are wired differently) then don't ruin it for the rest of us.

 

Exactly my opinion. 

Mark once told me, "we (mark, nick and matt) are just employed, neil is the boss!" June 16, 2010 Amager Bio, Copenhagen. Since then I have another look at "the band". Look forward to any new Finn/CH music.

Very well said Brando Brandt. 

I am sorry that Mark isn't going to be involved. I was probably a late fan to Together Alone. I missed Crowded House first time around, have heard the joy of the live shows from those days but the 2007+ version of the band is the one I know. 

A 3rd era of the band is very welcome to me. The thing that piqued my interest was Neil saying there would be several things happening next year; there have been rumours of a new Finn Brothers record floating around as well but as is often the way, things just come out of the blue which is nice.

I hope Neil has songs and ideas ready for a re-booted Crowded House that take the sound into new and curious places. Neil has taken plenty of risks and tried lots of things with his recent records (Pajama Club, Dizzy Heights, Out of Silence and Light Sleeper); I think he is as creative as he has ever been and look forward to what comes next. 

I agree that Neil Finn is the band leader and chief decision maker, although I'm saddened by this. I hope Mark knew of his exclusion at the time of the gig announcement. If he didn't, that would be pretty ordinary.

I'm in the same boat. I discovered the band only a couple years ago and am thrilled to see any of them at all live. Mark is so talented and I adore the sound of Together Alone.

Monsieur Nick posted:

As it says above, if its Neil, Nick and mum on bongo's its still Crowded House. 

I am appreciative of Mark and his part in the band, Matt too; I was particularly keen on the era of Crowded House 2007+ but am open minded to a Crowded House 2020+. 

I understand all that people say about bands but Crowded House probably stopped being that sort of band in 1996. As others have mentioned, there are lots of other bands that operate with founder members and interchanging support members. 

As for 2020, I am hoping I will be able to see Crowded House with 2 of the 3 original members. I look forward to new players bringing something different to the show.

Does anyone plan to boycott the shows because Mark isn't going to be there?

I won’t boycott anything , even though I feel disappointed about mark . I don’t think it “ stopped being that type of band “ in 1996 . In 2007 it was The same band that recorded Together Alone - but they needed a new drummer . That line up lasted till 2016 .

They don’t need to replace Mark now - but they are going to . 

If the songs are going to be played with the mindset of 'This is Crowded House' rather than just as 'Songs of Crowded House played by Neil + Others including Nick', then I think that we are very lucky.

I thoroughly enjoyed the November 2016 Sydney gigs because the band sounded fresh and vital when the 4 of them were together...it reminded me of seeing the band in March '92 when Mark had replaced Tim; the songs were breathing their own lives with each performance. Beautiful songs outlast the life of any band, and Crowded House has a surplus that is the envy of so many musicians (why are there so many tribute bands plugging the holes in venues these days?). This is not to distract from Mark's role or Neil's decision; they'll talk more when they're ready...the dark horse in all of this (for me) is Nick Seymour.

Nick's style and approach is the glue between Neil and everyone who has been in the band in my very humble opinion. The 7 deluxe sets highlight this in spades. Neil is exacting and very particular about who he works with over a long period of time; Nick outlasts just about everyone in this regard. Neil's current international profile will undoubtably reflect well in terms of timing the return of Crowded House; while I'm saddened that Mark won't appear at Byron Bay, I'd prefer to wait until further insights are shared IF it's appropriate for the public to know.

I don't think that Mark can be replaced when considering his harmonies, lap steel, keyboards, guitars, and harmonica prowess....a new musician will have to carve their own niche. I am however intrigued and very hopeful that Crowded House will outlast a temporary visit next year.

Alphonse posted:

If the songs are going to be played with the mindset of 'This is Crowded House' rather than just as 'Songs of Crowded House played by Neil + Others including Nick', then I think that we are very lucky.

I thoroughly enjoyed the November 2016 Sydney gigs because the band sounded fresh and vital when the 4 of them were together...it reminded me of seeing the band in March '92 when Mark had replaced Tim; the songs were breathing their own lives with each performance. Beautiful songs outlast the life of any band, and Crowded House has a surplus that is the envy of so many musicians (why are there so many tribute bands plugging the holes in venues these days?). This is not to distract from Mark's role or Neil's decision; they'll talk more when they're ready...the dark horse in all of this (for me) is Nick Seymour.

Nick's style and approach is the glue between Neil and everyone who has been in the band in my very humble opinion. The 7 deluxe sets highlight this in spades. Neil is exacting and very particular about who he works with over a long period of time; Nick outlasts just about everyone in this regard. Neil's current international profile will undoubtably reflect well in terms of timing the return of Crowded House; while I'm saddened that Mark won't appear at Byron Bay, I'd prefer to wait until further insights are shared IF it's appropriate for the public to know.

I don't think that Mark can be replaced when considering his harmonies, lap steel, keyboards, guitars, and harmonica prowess....a new musician will have to carve their own niche. I am however intrigued and very hopeful that Crowded House will outlast a temporary visit next year.

 

 

Neil Sacked Nick in 1989 ...

....& reversed his decision a few weeks later.

Alphonse posted:

....& reversed his decision a few weeks later.

Absolutley . First of all he got a bit of pressure from the management . I think Mark chipped in , but finally it was up to Nick to approach Neil and argue his case . Had he not done that I’m not sure if we would have heard from Nick again . 

Unfortunately, I don’t think Mark is that kind of character to approach Neil and have it out with him  

I don't think there is "management" any more. Just like there isn't outside production. There's just one place where the buck stops.

From what I've seen, it seems the relationship with Mark and Neil isn't as strong as others?  Such as stage banter and introduction: "my good friend Nick", "my good friend Matt", and "my friend Mark Hart".

On the FTTW commentary, it was just the two of them and I didn't sense the closeness other members seem to hold. Just my 2c.  We all have favorite friends.

  I love Mark. "You've been a fan longer than I've been in the band", Atlanta 2010.

c.houser posted:

From what I've seen, it seems the relationship with Mark and Neil isn't as strong as others?  Such as stage banter and introduction: "my good friend Nick", "my good friend Matt", and "my friend Mark Hart".

On the FTTW commentary, it was just the two of them and I didn't sense the closeness other members seem to hold. Just my 2c.  We all have favorite friends.

  I love Mark. "You've been a fan longer than I've been in the band", Atlanta 2010.

Mark joined Neil on his first solo tour . I thought they always seemed close . 

Plug posted:

I don't think there is "management" any more. Just like there isn't outside production. There's just one place where the buck stops.

Neil / crowded House has management around the time of and after Intriguer .i remember he discussed his hopes for Neil and the band . Don’t know if that’s changed ?

I find it surprising. Mark has talent and class so we may never know what actually transpired. He certainly will never say. As to saying Mark and Neil were not close, Mark generally played with Neil for at least a song or two each time Neil played a Neil Finn show in Los Angeles. That wouldn't happen if there was not a certain closeness. Neil likes having his friends around, like having Eddie Vedder play with him in Seattle when he comes around. Mysterious happenings.

Hello all—

@mattl, excellent last paragraph.  What a class act Mark has continued to show himself to be.

Some great comments here from a lot of people. Have loved reading them.

I love all Neil's projects, love him working with his family, and love his involvement with Fleetwood Mac. More than anything, I love that he makes his own decisions on what he does and who he works with on his solo material.

But firing Mark, if that's what we're led to believe has happened, does not pass the sniff test. On the surface, the decision does not sit well and is a true kick in the guts to the fans. Crowded House, in my opinion, is sacrosanct and Mark Hart is an important cog in that machine.

If Mark had tragically died, then I could buy Crowded House carrying on with either Mitchell Froom or Eddie Rayner taking his place. But flat out sacking Mark and Matt (if that is what happened) does not sit right with me. Forced or amicable changes (Paul and Tim) are one thing, but this news leaves a sour taste in the mouth of many fans.

If this Bluesfest gig were for a one-off show to serve as a reunion with Mitchell Froom (and perhaps Tim Finn) I would understand Mark taking a break, but when you start slashing half your current membership (again, if that's what has happened) then it becomes Neil Finn & Friends.

Hell, I wouldn't be against the idea of a whole new band featuring Neil Finn (vocals, rhythm guitar), Nick Seymour (bass), Johnny Marr (lead guitar, vocals), Mike Campbell (lead guitar, vocals), Mick Fleetwood (drums) and Mitchell Froom (keyboards). What a supergroup that would be. Think of all the great songs they could play, including Crowded House and many other songs from Neil's songbook.

But just don't call it Crowded House. Not that I'm suggesting Neil will try and pass off an entirely new band as Crowded House. To me, Crowded House, at the very least, is the core trio of Neil, Nick and Mark. And throw Matt in there to make up the quartet, since Paul and Peter are no longer options. I wouldn't even be against making Liam and Elroy an official 5th member, but not at the expense of Mark Hart.

Again, I'm only theorising/speculating. There are still a lot of questions that will be answered in time. To Neil's credit, he did say we need to trust him. I'm certainly not blindly trusting him, but until we know what these upcoming announcements will be it's hard to make too many further comments.

Mark was a very kind and respectful fellow the time I met him. I also enjoyed the stories from the Ghost Cars book about how he settled into his place in the band. There is no doubt his talent and presence will be missed.

stuartjb posted:

Plug posted:

I don't think there is "management" any more. Just like there isn't outside production. There's just one place where the buck stops.

Neil / crowded House has management around the time of and after Intriguer .i remember he discussed his hopes for Neil and the band . Don’t know if that’s changed ?

Neil is listed on the Suretone roster now, along with Crowded House, and of course most of the Fleetwood Mac members. 

http://suretone.com/management/

I hope he made the right choice in signing with Suretone. 

Does anyone know anything about them? Is this recent?

Freofan posted:

Does anyone know anything about them? Is this recent?

Within the last year.  Presumably as a result of the FM situation.  

I believe it is Carl Stubner's business:-

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Stubner

You'll see Mick Fleetwood's name crop up a lot in connection with Stubner.

I'm pretty sure Lindsey Buckingham was listed there too, until quite recently.

Secret God (Stew) posted:

Some great comments here from a lot of people. Have loved reading them.

I love all Neil's projects, love him working with his family, and love his involvement with Fleetwood Mac. More than anything, I love that he makes his own decisions on what he does and who he works with on his solo material.

But firing Mark, if that's what we're led to believe has happened, does not pass the sniff test. On the surface, the decision does not sit well and is a true kick in the guts to the fans. Crowded House, in my opinion, is sacrosanct and Mark Hart is an important cog in that machine.

If Mark had tragically died, then I could buy Crowded House carrying on with either Mitchell Froom or Eddie Rayner taking his place. But flat out sacking Mark and Matt (if that is what happened) does not sit right with me. Forced or amicable changes (Paul and Tim) are one thing, but this news leaves a sour taste in the mouth of many fans.

If this Bluesfest gig were for a one-off show to serve as a reunion with Mitchell Froom (and perhaps Tim Finn) I would understand Mark taking a break, but when you start slashing half your current membership (again, if that's what has happened) then it becomes Neil Finn & Friends.

Hell, I wouldn't be against the idea of a whole new band featuring Neil Finn (vocals, rhythm guitar), Nick Seymour (bass), Johnny Marr (lead guitar, vocals), Mike Campbell (lead guitar, vocals), Mick Fleetwood (drums) and Mitchell Froom (keyboards). What a supergroup that would be. Think of all the great songs they could play, including Crowded House and many other songs from Neil's songbook.

But just don't call it Crowded House. Not that I'm suggesting Neil will try and pass off an entirely new band as Crowded House. To me, Crowded House, at the very least, is the core trio of Neil, Nick and Mark. And throw Matt in there to make up the quartet, since Paul and Peter are no longer options. I wouldn't even be against making Liam and Elroy an official 5th member, but not at the expense of Mark Hart.

Again, I'm only theorising/speculating. There are still a lot of questions that will be answered in time. To Neil's credit, he did say we need to trust him. I'm certainly not blindly trusting him, but until we know what these upcoming announcements will be it's hard to make too many further comments.

This . In a nutshell .

Weightless Astronaut posted:

 

I hope he made the right choice in signing with Suretone. 

Why would/could this be a wrong choice?

brownie posted:

Weightless Astronaut posted:

 

I hope he made the right choice in signing with Suretone. 

Why would/could this be a wrong choice?

I don't have any particular reason for wondering about the choice.  Just that, as others have alluded to, most recently Neil seems to have been in complete control of everything.  The cultural fit is important.  

Hi folks,

I’m new here and joined so I could post some pertinent information about the new Crowded House line-up. I used to be involved with them in a professional manner many years ago and still maintain contact with some of the band & crew. This is how I found out.
Anyhow, with all the talk about Mark Hart being fired, it’s also true that Matt Sherrod has been fired.
Unofficially their replacements are:

Liam Finn - guitars  (possible keyboards as well)
Elroy Finn - drums  (possible guitars as well)
Mitchell Froom - keyboards
Sharon Finn - bass (just joking, lookout Nick)

So there we have it, the new Crowded House members. It will be a pretty good band and Neil Finn usually knows what he is doing. I’m sure that an official announcement will be made as soon as the time is right.
I’m so sorry for Mark & Matt. They are awesome folks and very good musicians. Crowded House won’t be the same without them.

Thank you for reading,
Beatlebum

Beatlebum posted:

Hi folks,

I’m new here and joined so I could post some pertinent information about the new Crowded House line-up. I used to be involved with them in a professional manner many years ago and still maintain contact with some of the band & crew. This is how I found out.
Anyhow, with all the talk about Mark Hart being fired, it’s also true that Matt Sherrod has been fired.
Unofficially their replacements are:

Liam Finn - guitars  (possible keyboards as well)
Elroy Finn - drums  (possible guitars as well)
Mitchell Froom - keyboards
Sharon Finn - bass (just joking, lookout Nick)

So there we have it, the new Crowded House members. It will be a pretty good band and Neil Finn usually knows what he is doing. I’m sure that an official announcement will be made as soon as the time is right.
I’m so sorry for Mark & Matt. They are awesome folks and very good musicians. Crowded House won’t be the same without them.

Thank you for reading,
Beatlebum

Thanks for the info . Just as I suspected . Not happy .

Why would he fire half of an established band to make music with his sons, which he can do anyway? 

And why fire Mark, if he then still needs to bring in someone else on keyboards? 

If Neil is planning to use Mitchell Froom for keyboards instead of Mark Hart, I think that's a perfectly acceptable choice. For many years Mark was the unofficial 4th member of the touring band, but he was playing Mitchell's parts. Mitchell was really the unofficial 4th member of the studio band for the first three albums. All that changed for Together Alone of course and Mark got to compose and perform his own parts in the studio for a change. 

I love Mark and I love his playing but Mitchell's work with the band is equally (or arguably more) legendary. So, I'm keeping an open mind. I don't think Neil is saying Mark will never be part of Crowded House again, but I'm up for a different incarnation of the band. Though I too would be unimpressed if it turned out to just be Liam and Elroy.