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I'd love to agree but I can't. If I was doing a best of CH I would be including songs from the last two albums. So...you don't want to escalate the debate yet want us to agree the last two albums have been really rather substandard? Confused

The whole thing about this thread is that some feel one way and some another. I think if we want to end the thread we need to have a peace treaty Smiler
Why do some people keep insisting that those who enjoy the two CH albums made since the reformation are not being honest?

I am being absolutely honest: I prefer Time on Earth and Intriguer (as complete albums) to all CH Mark I albums except for Together Alone (which is so perfect I don't think it will ever be surpassed).

Maybe my opinion is what it is because I came to Neil as a fan after CH Mark I had ended.

I can't understand why so many people seem incapable of believing that others can prefer these albums to what came before.

Why do you all insist that those like me are not being honest?

I don't get it.
Well. I've been away for a couple of days,come back and it's all kicked off!

I love the cut and thrust this thread has become,much more interesting reading than the usual,would you not agree!

The truth is as with all albums,some people love it,some people hate it,other people couldn't care less!

Seeing the songs performed live,they are so much better so I have to agree with the comments about the production,the drums do not have enough snap along with the guitars as earlier CH albums did!

Would have made a lot of difference to the end product along with the 2 cracking tracks only available as extras when they should have been on the album!
I try to avoid any thread that grades songs or albums, because it's always just a snapshot and I cannot honestly say that I know how I would've felt about Intriguer had I listened to it first when I was 16, as was the case with their first album. There's something special about the stuff you grew up with that lets you look past any flaws, dated production and less-than-perfect songs.

I feel there's a certain pressure on this forum (and probably any fan forum) though not to mention the not-so-nice things one notices about the new stuff, as if it were some kind of betrayal. While Neil gets my unconditional support in the regard that I'll buy anything he puts out (is it true about the phone book reading? How exciting!), I still reserve the right to use my ears and my brain.

Michael
quote:
Originally posted by dave robson:
Well. I've been away for a couple of days,come back and it's all kicked off!

I love the cut and thrust this thread has become,much more interesting reading than the usual,would you not agree!

The truth is as with all albums,some people love it,some people hate it,other people couldn't care less!

Seeing the songs performed live,they are so much better so I have to agree with the comments about the production,the drums do not have enough snap along with the guitars as earlier CH albums did!

Would have made a lot of difference to the end product along with the 2 cracking tracks only available as extras when they should have been on the album!


I think it kicked off a long time before you went away didn't it?? Wink

Mr. Robson is.....the intriguer!

Glad you had a great time at the Barcelona gig....I imagine you told the band how you feel about Intriguer?
quote:
Originally posted by Fellschnuffel:
I try to avoid any thread that grades songs or albums, because it's always just a snapshot and I cannot honestly say that I know how I would've felt about Intriguer had I listened to it first when I was 16, as was the case with their first album. There's something special about the stuff you grew up with that lets you look past any flaws, dated production and less-than-perfect songs.

I feel there's a certain pressure on this forum (and probably any fan forum) though not to mention the not-so-nice things one notices about the new stuff, as if it were some kind of betrayal. While Neil gets my unconditional support in the regard that I'll buy anything he puts out (is it true about the phone book reading? How exciting!), I still reserve the right to use my ears and my brain.

Michael


Hey..good use of sarcasm. When do you plan to use the ears and the brain exactly? Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Minty:
Look, can't we all be honest and admit that, however much we appreciate Neil's genius & the band in general, the two albums since they reformed have been, er, really rather substandard?

It's not about being honest, it's about having differing tastes and opinions.
That's like saying, can't we be honest and all admit that broccoli tastes great or something.
Your statement makes no sense to me at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Finfan:
Your views indicate YOUR brain seems to insist every other brain agrees with you?

Not at all? In fact, when I join a discussion, it's usually in order to debate with people who have a different opinion. I don't see the point in adding the 100th post of "Me too!".

quote:
Originally posted by Finfan:
I mean..come on, sarcasm aside you think that all the people that actually like Intriguer are somehow 'wrong'?

Again, not at all? Maybe you're confusing my posts with someone else's? What I said was that I feel it seems it's perfectly okay to say you like the album (and you don't have to defend yourself), but if you feel it's less than perfect, you get ripped apart. There's no right or wrong when it comes to taste.

Are we really having meta-meta-discussions now? Big Grin

Michael
quote:
Originally posted by constant:
I think a lot of us all topic-ed out by now and said our piece - but it seems not you Fellschnuffel.

in fact if you read it the post properly it mwas Finfan that dissed you, not me, I in fact wrote people DO have different opinions, {Quote tomato, tomata}

Obviously went right over your head Roll Eyes

Or maybe my reply went right over yours, in spite of the smilies? Razzer
I thought your reply to Finfan's post was a good example of "different strokes", hence my relating it to the subject at hand, i.e. music.
No worries, I didn't feel "dissed" by either you or Finfan (I'm a little scared brownie will read the recent posts though).

Michael
quote:
I mean..come on, sarcasm aside you think that all the people that actually like Intriguer are somehow 'wrong'?


It all seems to have got a bit nastier over the last couple of days,a lot of it down to you finfan!

I have shown my support for the band by going to 4 concerts in the past three weeks,Plymouth,
Apollo twice and Barcelona at a considerable financial cost,too scared to add up.

I have also bought the deluxe version of the album,and have all previous albums so feel that I have as much right as anybody else to express an opinion!

CH are fantastic live, I thanked the guys last night for a fantastic gig and as I expressed in my gig thread the Intriguer tracks they played came to life live!

I just wish they had more vitality on the album.

I am sure Neil and the guys couldn't care less about my opinion and why should they!

I seems that you have taken on the mantle of official censor and have decided as per your quote above that anybody who does not share your opinion is "somehow wrong"
... you can tell a man from what he has to say:
quote:
Originally posted by constant:
In conclusion to this mail, I want to add it doesn't change how you feel about Neil and the boys, we just have to wait and hope that the nexr offering is more honest and true to what Crowded House really is.

This almost got lost along the way!
While I feel that everyone has the right to like or dislike the new album, could you maybe explain what makes you think this offering is not "honest" or "true to what Crowded House really is"? And who gets to decide that?

Michael
quote:
Originally posted by Fellschnuffel:
I'm a little scared brownie will read the recent posts though.

*laughs*

What am I, the policeman? Wink

I just don't like to see good discussions get thrown off track, which seems to be happening more now than it ever has in my almost 8 years on this forum.

Too tired to argue right now. I've said my (latest) piece on the topic.

Carry on. Wink Or not. Wink
Relax Michael,

You decide what you like and I decide what I like, that is what this forum is about. As it has been said time and time again we all have different opinions. You seem to be looking for a fight on this forum and I think you don't come across very friendly with your mails.

For me TOE and this CD was so disappointing with about 4 possible songs that I will play from time to time OK They seem more like Neil songs that CH songs. Isolation being the nearest to a CH song for me.

No one is getting at you because you LIKE it so relax and continue to enjoy it and do not always take immediate offence everytime.
There. Now you woke brownie again. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by constant:
Relax Michael,

You decide what you like and I decide what I like, that is what this forum is about.

See, that's where I must be wrong - I thought this forum was also about discussion! Eeker

quote:
Originally posted by constant:
As it has been said time and time again we all have different opinions. You seem to be looking for a fight on this forum and I think you don't come across very friendly with your mails.

Well, while I do challenge other people's posts (it's a discussion forum for ****'s sake!), I haven't purposely insulted anyone to the best of my knowledge, so I could be doing worse. Your calling other posters "pompous" and insinuating they're not being honest might not come across as a compliment actually.

What I am looking for is a place where it's possible to discuss different opinions and where people are willing and able to support their point of view, preferably without name calling and getting personal. Am I in the wrong place?

quote:
Originally posted by constant:
No one is getting at you because you LIKE it so relax and continue to enjoy it and do not always take immediate offence everytime.

Are you confusing me with someone else again? It seems I haven't said enough times that while I LOVE Intriguer, I don't LIKE it all that much.

Nothing anyone could say on an internet forum will ever offend me. Yet maybe if we could keep this thread on topic (and not make it about me), it would be more interesting for others, though?

Would you maybe care to clarify why you feel the new album isn't "honest"?

Michael
Well, while I do challenge other people's posts (it's a discussion forum for ****'s sake!), I haven't purposely insulted anyone to the best of my knowledge, so I could be doing worse. Your calling other posters "pompous" and insinuating they're not being honest might not come across as a compliment actually.

I completely agree with you, the whole point of starting this thread was to have an intelligent discussion on the merits of the album,positive or negative and I think it has succeeded with a few exceptions, as per my comments to finfan!

A few seem to have the opinion that if you are at all negative about the album there is something wrong with you!

Quote from Wikipedia:

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site.[1] It originated as the modern equivalent of a traditional bulletin board, and a technological evolution of the dialup bulletin board system.[2][3] From a technological standpoint, forums or boards are web applications managing user-generated content.[3][4]
People participating in an Internet forum may cultivate social bonds and interest groups for a topic made from the discussions.

Some people seem to have forgotten the meaning!
quote:
Originally posted by Finfan:
I agree I may have got so passionate pro-Intriguer that I ended up winding myself up Smiler

I've actually been out-intrigued by my own doing. I think most of us have made mistakes and maybe offended without meaning to eh?

I'm waving my white flag. Wink

It's the work of the Intriguer Wink, and it happens to all of us (most definitely including myself). Smiler

Michael
Agreed, dave. Let's please agree to move on; especially as I've been in the main respectful in my time as a forum member; this has been for quite a long time without knowingly upsetting people thankfully.

I am not willing to become a scapegoat for having a different opinion that for many years I have managed to express satisfactorily. These last few days may have been the proverbial straw that finally broke the Finfan's back, if we all look back at our threads most of us have made mistakes?

That's me finished on it guys!

Indeed, Michael - the Intriguer got me. If only they had called the album 'Harmony' Big Grin
Would now be a good time to mention that I don't play any tracks on the first two albums unless they happen to be on Recurring Dream or any of the live performances I possess? Eeker
I'll play Finn Brothers albums, Solo Neil albums and all the later CH albums in preference.

I guess by implication I must be deaf and stupid.
I'm pleased that I don't feel compelled to care what other people like and I really couldn't care less what they think of my preferences. Wink Big Grin

I await my heretics pyre with baited breath.
quote:
Would now be a good time to mention that I don't play any tracks on the first two albums unless they happen to be on Recurring Dream or any of the live performances I possess?
I'll play Finn Brothers albums, Solo Neil albums and all the later CH albums in preference.


The beauty of living in a free society is that everybody has the right to decide what they like or dislike in life and music falls into the same category!
De gustibus non est disputandum. Smiler

What's so interesting to me are the varying concepts of a "CH sound". Until this thread I never thought about my notion of this -- whether I am looking for a particularly beloved and singular sonic experience when I crank up a new CH tune.

It turns out, upon reflection, I'm not. I'm interested in whatever NF/CH does next. Granted I do know it'll be melodic and singable, important qualities to me. Neil's music is maturing, but so am I. So it suits me now, as it suited me 25 years ago.

I was a teenager when the Beatles were huge. Growing up with their music was amazing -- their musical development seemed to mirror my expanding world. But I had friends who didn't connect the later Beatles and bemoaned the loss of the "She Loves You" phase of the band. Just what makes that ineffable and profound connection in a person to a certain kind of music, I don't know. A perfect mystery, to quote somebody or other.

I can certainly understand the keen disappointment of a fan seeking that great sound and not finding it. Happily for me, that doesn't describe my experience with Intriguer.
quote:
Originally posted by LMK:


Yup.

I actually really like the material on this album. The songs have a lot more integrity to me than Time on Earth, I would rate it a good step above that one.

But you're right about the production, it's so FLAT it's shocking. One example: What's with those drums in Amsterdam? GREAT song, so much potential to be a genuine classic, but the prodution is flat and super squashed. The drums just have no impact at all.

This is not Matt's fault by any stretch, he is a world class drummer, doing great performances on the album, and his drumming sounded a million times better on say the Jools Holland broadcast version for instance. This is a production choice. They are going for a loud modern sound, dynamics and energy be damned.

If the album had been produced/mastered quieter, we would just have turned up the stereos a bit until it reached the same perceived level of loudness, but we would have had a album with energy and punch instead!

I know I've complained about this issue before with TOE, but I just can't believe how bad Crowded House have gotten in terms of "screw dynamics".

There are basically TWO elements of music: The melodic part (which includes things like harmony) and the dynamic part (which includes rhythmic aspects). We now have a band that only cares about the first part, and I'd say that's about 50 % of the musical potential ignored.


What he said! I'm actually still waiting on Getmusic to deliver my copy of Intriguer, but as it happens I am currently listening to the vinyl of TOE...I LOVE some of the songs on TOE but sonically it is dogsh1t! Frowner No impact from the drums, no crescendos anywhere because the whole song is at 100%, and insanely fatiguing to listen to. When I have too keep turning the volume lower and lower to keep sore ears at bay, it's not good!

I still can't believe a songsmith like Neil doesn't realise how much destruction is being wrought through mastering like this.

I'm hoping the Intriguer vinyl has better mastering (TSCO had *slightly* better mastering on vinyl than CD, so here's hoping...). This assumes the vinyl isn't vapourware that I've been charged for, yet never to receive. Roll Eyes

Sorry to be grumpy, but I'm ill at the moment, and listening to the wretched brickwalled mess that is TOE isn't helping!
quote:
Originally posted by dave robson:
quote:
Would now be a good time to mention that I don't play any tracks on the first two albums unless they happen to be on Recurring Dream or any of the live performances I possess?
I'll play Finn Brothers albums, Solo Neil albums and all the later CH albums in preference.


The beauty of living in a free society is that everybody has the right to decide what they like or dislike in life and music falls into the same category!


They do indeed. Shame that a few people seem to have forgotten that. Wink

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