It most certainly is a word, I don't like to say this as people seem to get very nasty when this is revealed (they seem to see some sort of superiority thing which is NOT the case) but I do have a Bachelor of Music majoring in composition and I am classically trained. However everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course From a personal view point, if I wrote a song (and I've written many) and someone else improvised a fantastic solo over the top of my chord progression using my melody as a basis (also happened many times) I would not give them a credit. If they wrote a bridge to the song, or wrote more than two lines of the lyrics, or completed the melody, then yes I would give them a credit. I imagine when working with musicians who cannot read music (and I think I'm right in saying apart from Mark Hart only Neil Finn could read music in CH) you would discuss the general feel of the song, provide a chord chart and then play the song. It usually all comes together fairly quickly, then you have all those lovely arguments when you want to alter other people's parts or reject them entirely. I'm sure Neil may have said to Nick follow the guitar line in this part, but play something different hear. This is shapoing the bass line by the composer, but also allowing personal creative freedom on the players half.quote:You seem to be more knowledgable (is that a word?) than me.
Oh dear, Duke ELlington was possibly one of the most famous Jazz composers ever. His songs include It Don't Mean a Thing, Mood Indigo, Satin Doll, I Let A SOng Go Out of My Heart, I'm Beginning to See The Light, Caravan, The Mooche, Black and Tan Fantasy, Perdido, Cotton Tail, Do Nothing Till You Hear From Me, Solitude, Sophisticated Lady, In A Mellow Tone, Just Squeeze Me, Don't Get Around Much Anymore, I Got It Bad (and That Ain't Good), phew, and that's on;y a fraction of his output, everyone of which is a jazz standard. However he's been dead since 1972 and if you aren't into Jazz, you probably don't know any of those songs. Have you heard of Louis Armstrong? Ellington is just as well known, if not more so.quote:Um... I have no idea who Johnny Hodges is, let alone Duke Ellington, so I won't put my opinion forward on that topic
Why? He's playing a solo over Ellington's piece. That means that when I play It Don't Mean A Thing and solo over the form, I should have my name next to Ellington's. Or when I play Fingers of Love and play my own guitar solo, the song should read N. Finn/J Richards, as the solo is all mine. Surely you agree that that is idiotic?quote:but if that Johnny Hodges bloke improvised on one of that Duke Ellington dude's songs, I believe he should be credited for what he did...
Because that's what CH was. Can't you hear the difference between TWT and One Nil and the CH albums? CH has it's own wonderful unique sound. There is a strong feeling of being a band and band unity in CH, which I don't feel in TWT.quote:Well I don't know really why he did bother with the whole "band" concept...
Why was it the logical thing to do in the eighties? Sting, Peter Gabriel, Michael Jackson and many others were solo artists in the eighties and never felt the need to be part of a band. IF you'd said the sixties I'd tend to agree....
That's because he went on a writing holiday with Jim Moiginie (I know that's spelt wrong but TWT is too far away at the moment ) and wrote a lot of songs with him, the same way he wrote a lot of Woodface with Tim. BTW, the WF demos have paul playing drums the whole way through, but none of the songs are credited to him. On p163 of Somethiong So Strong Neil says they called Paul over 'to play along and have a bit of a sing'. These are demos, both Tim and Neil can play drums to varying degrees, so if they wrote all the parts why bother asking paul over? They didn't record those demos live, they're eight track demos.quote:In the 19 songs I have from the Try Whistling This sessions, only 14 of them were solely written by Neil....
Yes it is. I just cannot see CH lasting that long if all the parts were dictated by Neil Finn. SUre I agree he shaped the parts to fit with his song, but I don't believe he wrote them all himself. I DO agree that he wrote all the songs by himself. At the end of the day, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this, unless I can win you over to my sidequote:So how did Crowded House last nearly 12 years? (I guess that's where we disagree)
So how is Eddie Rayner's superlative keyboard work (and let's face it, the keyboard solos were the best in SE, oh ok, that's subjective ) not worthy of a co credit but Mitchell Froom's is? Especially when Eddie is all over those Judd songs? That doesn't seem logical.quote:I have no idea if Phil Judd was that much of a genius to write all that, so he probably relied on Eddie Rayner's (hopefully I didn't spell his name wrong again) skills, but not enough to warrant a co-written song I guess?
If you can get hold of CH 1994 Fleadh concert you can hear how Locked Out originally sounded. Neil also then goes on to say how the songs used to change drastically when the band got hold of them. This doesn't sound like a control freak dictating all the parts to me, it sounds more like a band where everyone had creative input into the arrangements. Mark Hart sped it up and turned it into a bit of a thrash and presumably improvised both guitar solosquote:Ahhh... it was Mark Hart who suggested that? I remember hearing that a while back, but didn't know it was Mark. But if all Mark did was say "Hey, Neil... why don't you make that song slower?", that shouldn't mean he should be credited, but if he re-arranged the song completely, he should. I don't know what sort of changes Mark made sorry.
as he plays both. If Neil was such a control freak, wouldn't the songs always sound the same when performed live, that is, playing all his written parts? Like the difference between Eddie Rayner's keyboard work and then Mark Hart playing the same CH songs. They don't sound the same, and I strongly suspect because it is the creative input of either Eddie Rayner or Mark Hart that shape those changes.
He did, Mark Hart is co credited on Together Alone and Kare Kare. Kare Kare is written by all four members and presumably Mark Hart wrote part of Together Alone. I do like his horror stories of Neil rejecting the brass arrangement of that song about four times. Possibly band politics had shifted by that time and Neil was happy to give co credits, Nick is credited for Catherine Wheels. Song writers and composers are very close to their work, we hate to give co credits, unless very well deserving. After all, we do most 90% of the work and if somebody pulls out a rip snorting solo but didn't contribute to the writing of the actual piece or song, then no I wouldn't give them a credit. Same if I wrote a song and someone added a bass line I wouldn't credit them unless it significantly changed the song.quote:Well why didn't Neil give a bit more (due?) credit to Mark Hart, ect?
Yes but I was talking about the bass line which is clear as a bell, extremely boring and badly played (IMO) and quite exposed for the first minute of the song. The drums are mostly a looped sample, not to some people's taste, but still a good song, and IMO far more creative than She Will Have Her Way, but now I see vistas of cans and worms appearing before mine eyes.quote:Listening [to Twisty Bass] now... & I can't honestly figure out that song. The chorus is too distorted to tell what is where & the drum track is weird. Sorry.
Not too sure what you mean by configure, but yes, this is what I meant, Paul coming up with his drum part would obviously be complementary to the actual song. So if Neil didn't like it, I'd imagine he'd say so, they'd discuss ideas, he may show Paul what he wants, Paul may then add to this or say that won't work etc... To a degree it's the same with the bassline, Neil Finn has already laid down the guidelines with the chord progression and melody.quote:Well I think he probably had some idea of how the overall song (including the drum track) was going to sound... & someone else writing the drum track to a song isn't going to mean the song is going to sound much different, so if he didn't like what Paul came up with, he would have him configure it I guess.
Yes he did, on the studio version that's on Afterglow. He and Paul apparantly had a fight and Paul went to bed, so Neil multitracked each drum part by himself because he didn't have the skill to play it all at the same time. Well, it's all subjective, but I don't think the drumming sounds very competent on that recording, and certainly considering the way he recorded it, it doesn't tally with the idea that he wrote all the other drum parts that Paul played.quote:[You Can Touch] Did he play the drums on that? Are you talking about the studio version? Doesn't the drums sound any good or something?
Nothing, I never said there was. I used that as an example because I presumed, unlike me, you don't have a huge bootleg collection, and that is a well known solo acoustic demo of Neil Finn's. Also it doesn't have bass or drum parts (pretty much like the WF demos, except they do have drums because Paul is there). I have heard that live version of Lester, but I prefer the demo Do you own the Finn album? The basslines on that (played by Neil) are nothing like Nick Seymour's CH basslines. As Neil wrote most CH songs and if he wrote their bass lines it logically follows that the bass lines on Finn should sound similar, but they don't.quote:And what's wrong with a song sounding like lester?
I'm known for my verbosity and my tenacityquote:This would have to be the longest post I have ever posted to this forum! Feel special Camus!