Vinyls, covers and gatefolds

OK, I asked for explanation in another thread about the word "gatefold", that I couldn't find in my dictionaries. And when GeoffR posted back the explanation WITH some photos of gatefolds (the Beatles' SPLHCB and CH's RD) he had me in fits.

I'm jealous, I'm envious (the nice version of enviousness Roll Eyes), I feel so bad...

All of a sudden I remembered the time I used to buy vinyl albums: I relished the moment I opened the cellophane and I smelled that disctintive chemical flavour. Because in my brain that scent meant new music (most of the times = bliss) to me the smell of vinyl is a "flavour" and better than a lot of fragrances.

I also remembered the pleasure of handling an object that is so much bigger than a CD, and what's worst, I remembered the pleasure of having big images, big covers, big photograps and lyrics too. As for the gatefolds, they were pure luxury. A treat.

Sigh.

It's different. Definitely so. At least for me. I'm reading in other threads that the sound of Ch's albums can be very different (and better) than CDs. I'll have to enquire, as soon as I will be able to recover from this fever that's pushing me to buy ANYTHING I'm still missing.

I don't have a great turntable but I'm ready to tighten on the food expences, in order to buy one.

So, if someone out there is as much delirious about vinyls as me, please, let me know!

-

I will make it shine, I will make it rain sometimes

Original Post
I'm starting to wonder if my title should be changed from The Climber to Vinyl Pusher. Ooops! Didn't mean to make you jealous (well, maybe a little bit Big Grin ) just thought you'd be interested.

Anyway, no one will be surprised to see me post in this thread. For me CDs have sort of fallen down the gap between vinyl and ipod. I always generally preferred vinyl at home. The selling point for CDs for me used to be convenience, but they can't compete with an ipod for convenience...

Regarding the sound of CH albums, my views are as follows:

Debut - CD sounds detailed but very thin in comparison to LP. Aus LP sounds less detailed but with more body. US LP best of both worlds.

TOLM - I only have the picture disc. Not really an improvement on my UK CD. Will post further if and when I get a 'normal' vinyl copy.

Woodface - BIG improvement on the CD. The CD sounds good. The UK/German LP sounds wonderful. Harmonies and instrument separation are fantastic. Highly recommended.

Together Alone - I have the original UK version. Sounds good, but so does the CD. This album should be 2LP, it's too long for 1LP really. On budget turntables you will probably experience a bit of Inner Groove Distortion on the title track.

TOE - Horrible sounding on CD, horrible sounding on LP! I hate it! Mind you, I have the US pressing and Paul has lead me to believe the UK pressing might be *slightly* better. Any improvement helps I guess.

Intriguer - haven't heard the CD. LP is no Woodface, but it is certainly better than TOE. Quite enjoyable.

As far as turntables go, not sure what you've got at the moment, but for those looking to buy one on the cheap, I recommend looking at used 70s era tables. The Pioneer PL-12 is always cited as a perennial favourite. Simple, cheap, and will not hurt your LPs. Miles better than cheap plastic tables that you can buy new (probably for more money). Replace the stylus (always do this on a used table) and you are good to go. Anybody wanting some advice on this subject, feel free to PM me.

EDIT: I forgot - the vinyl for 7WC2 is also quite a bit nicer than the CDs IMO. Worth seeking out.
GeoffR can you give us a brief summary of what artwork you get with each vinyl record (the albums only or you'll be writing all day Wink ),

Do they all have lyric sheets?
Which ones are gatefolds as opposed to single sleeves.
Any advice on the best places to buy vinyl,
What to look out for when buying etc.
I often worry that if I buy second hand the record will be scratched.
Hmm, off the top of my head, there are lyric sheets for CH and TOLM (can't remember for TOE and Intriguer), none for Woodface, TA or RD. The only gatefolds are RD and TOE. If you give me about 4 hours I can get pictures up. Also I'll post more purchasing info, but right now I've got to work. Will add more as soon as I can.
OK, this is going to be a BIG post. Sorry.

Debut:




Original Capitol US pressing is on left, original Capitol Aus pressing on right. Both inners are the same, I just showed one side of each so you can see what both look like (if that makes sense). Lyrics on inner.

Temple:

I only have a picture disc of this. Somebody else will have to post the (gorgeous) normal artwork.




Woodface:




German/UK original Capitol pressing. Generic white inner sleeve. No lyrics.

Together Alone:




Original UK Capitol pressing. No lyrics.

Recurring Dream:




UK (only?) pressing. No lyrics.

Time On Earth:




This is the US ATO pressing. I'd recommend going for the UK Parlophone pressing (if you bother to go for anything for this album) - both probably sound pretty poor, but at least the Parlophone isn't noisy. Lyrics on inside of gatefold.

Intriguer:




I have no idea whether there is more than one pressing of this. I'd guess not. Lyrics on inner.

Also here is The Sun Came Out:




Sony US pressing.

I have PJC as well, but I got bored of taking photos!

Just a note on pressings - there are often regional variations on LPs, whether it be something obvious like a different tracklist (my two copies of the debut are different), to packaging, and almost always, the actual 'cut', that is to say they will be made from different masterings, done by different engineers. In the analogue era this also usually meant from different tapes. 'Country of origin' pressings (ie USA for CH, as the band were signed direct to Capitol, and mostly recorded in the US) usually got the first generation tapes, and everyone else got dubs sent to them to master from. Dubs have generation loss and don't sound as good as the first generation tape, so generally speaking collectors prefer country of origin pressings if there are no other factors to consider.

Some of these LPs were reissued. Simply Vinyl did a few, and EMI themselves reissued Woodface. They may have different packaging, and I haven't heard them to compare. Personally I am slightly wary of Simply Vinyl as at least some of their LPs were cut from CDs...in which case you may as well stick with said CD! Not saying that is the case for the CH ones, but I don't know, whereas I DO know that the originals were cut from the correct sources.

What else? I believe there may actually be at least a US Woodface, but they are damned rare. TA I'm not sure about, but I think there was more UK involvement with that one anyway, so...shrug!

Ehh...so much information. Man what a geek! Wink

I'll add some general stuff about buying LPs in another post.
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
Any advice on the best places to buy vinyl,
What to look out for when buying etc.
I often worry that if I buy second hand the record will be scratched.


I get a lot of my used vinyl from eBay, but if you go down that route, it pays to do your homework first. Things to bear in mind on eBay:
1)Check the seller out. Do they sell a lot of records, or sell all sorts of stuff and just a few records in there? Experienced record sellers know how to grade condition. If you find a seller with a lot of record sales and good feedback, the odds are good that you will get what you expect.
2) The more information available on the listing, the better. Don't be afraid to ask for more if anything is unclear.
3) This is just my personal opinion, but if you see a listing with not much info, poor/non-existent pictures and "Mint Condition", you are gambling. A lot of unknowledgeable sellers say 'Mint', and if they do not know the Goldmine/Record Collector grading schemes, their version of 'Mint' probably won't match yours. Most good sellers pretty much refuse to use the grade 'Mint' as it is basically impossible to live up to. 'Near Mint' is what you're after.
4) Sealed LPs can be great (you know it won't be worn or scratched). The only issue is you can't get the seller to look at the matrix codes on the deadwax should you wish to confirm something (like which exact pressing it is, who cut it etc). That may or may not bother you. Most people not, I'd guess, but it's why I didn't/am not looking for sealed for US copies of CH and TOLM - there are particular cuts I want.
5) Specific to Crowded House - Woodface, and particularly TA, quite often go for reasonably large sums of money. Don't get sucked in. Be patient and you will pick them up for much more reasonable prices.

There are probably other things, but I can't think of them right now.

Other internet options are the marketplace at discogs.com, which lists each pressing and has good info, and if you'd rather pay more to guarantee condition, eil.com are good. I've only rarely bought from them, but they always deliver on condition. Oh, and don't forget the classifieds here at Frenz!

Other than that, local record shops are of course wonderful things, go support them! Flipping through stacks of LPs not knowing what you will find is a lot of fun.

If you are inspecting LPs in the shop, just the usual things to watch out for - scratches, dirty albums, lots of wear around the spindle hole (may or may not indicate a worn record), and also how lustrous does it look? LPs should be glossy and black. If they look grey and dull, they have probably been worn by being played on bad turntables. Avoid.

Also in a shop...when trying to judge condition, try to be near a window...natural light shows up lots that you might not see under fluro...

Right, it's someone elses turn...I'm knackered!

EDIT: I keep remembering more stuff. If you buy an LP and it is noisy, don't be afraid to give it a wash. When I got my US pressing of the debut, it was the noisiest record I'd ever heard. Constant loud crackles. After washing once, it is 90% better (just quiet surface noise in one or two spots. I reckon another clean will get it nearly perfect. SO: Brushes, a cleaning solution, and water. There are all sorts of fancy ways you can go about this, but for an inexpensive solution, I use a mixture of white vinegar and distilled water as the cleaning solution (brushed on/around), then hold the LP nearly vertical under a tap to wash it away, then rinse again with distilled water. Towel off the worst of the water and stick it in the dish rack to air dry overnight. The actual wash time is probably less than 5 minutes to do both sides of an album. Obviously it won't fix damaged grooves, but it does wonders if the record is just dirty.
Geoff, excellent post. I agree with every word. One thing that puzzles me though, is your vinyl Woodface.

The CD contains an illustrated insert with lyrics which, I've always assumed, mirrored the contents on the vinyl insert. I know that some retailers (Boots in the UK was a regular culprit) would sell albums with plain inners at a slightly lower price. I quickly got wind of this stopped buying from them. Is it possible that there are copies with a "proper" inner?

I'll also specifically second Geoff's comment about cleaning. Just don't scrub hard or use water that is too hot (thinner vinyl can warp).

It really is easy and the results can be surprising.

[Additional, I've been tempted for a while to upgrade my turntable but I'm not convinced its worth the effort: I have an old Acoustic Research 'table from the early 80's that I plopped a new cart on a while back. It sounds fine but there's always that part of me that thinks it might be better!]
I always wondered about Woodface myself. I have the CD and remember the inner. I have seen other copies of this LP with a white inner, but that's not to say a printed inner does not exist. I know others on this board have copies of this album- what have you all got? It's also quite possible that the US press and/or the EMI 100 reissue might have a different inner.

AR turntable, nice bit of gear! Smiler
ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You killed me with the photos! I hate you! No, sorry, I'm envious envious envious and eating my own liver now!

I wanted to ask more, yesterday on the evening, about where to find copies, and detail about how it's worth of purchase, but I see you can read my mind:

You're my official CH VINYL BIBLE.

I will read all in detail diligently, and abuse of you patience later in the year, because I HAVE to have them!
What could be find now, at least.

-
The TOLM cover killed me most, I've been asking to Peter Green if it's possible to have an art print of that through the club, because I love that so much, but it seems it's impossible.

Been beggin for a calendar, at least.

Spes ultima dea (Hope is the last Goddess...)

-
Ah, but they won't be as big and wonderfully reprinted. Besides, there's just something about holding a record sleeve...

(Actually, there's an interesting point to make about the artwork, which is that from TOE onwards, the artwork (apart from front and back covers) has been a collage of pretty similar sized reproductions of the CD inserts...)
quote:
Originally posted by Eudoxia:
ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You killed me with the photos! I hate you! No, sorry, I'm envious envious envious and eating my own liver now!


Hilarious! Big Grin

quote:
Originally posted by Eudoxia:
I wanted to ask more, yesterday on the evening, about where to find copies, and detail about how it's worth of purchase, but I see you can read my mind:

You're my official CH VINYL BIBLE.

I will read all in detail diligently, and abuse of you patience later in the year, because I HAVE to have them!
What could be find now, at least.

-


You should be able to find the first two easily and cheaply. Seems like there are millions of them around, and still LOTS of sealed copies in the US, if you wanted to go that way. Woodface and TA, as I said, will take a bit of patience unless you want to pay over the odds. They come up fairly regularly though, so keep trying.

TOE and Intriguer are still available new. TOE seems to be pretty expensive, Intriguer not so much. As much as I bitch about the sound, I have to say the best bit of TOE is the front cover. Gorgeous.
quote:
Originally posted by Runner:

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Eudoxia:
ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You killed me with the photos!



Sorry to be a killjoy in the vinyl love-fest , but my humble CDs have the same photos. Do yours not, Eudoxia ?


quote:
Ah, but they won't be as big and wonderfully reprinted. Besides, there's just something about holding a record sleeve...


Paul H answered for me, Runner. Do you really reckon it's the same? I wrote "physical and visual pleasure" for a reason: to me it makes a difference if the picture is 5x5 or 12x12 inches. Even the tactile sensation of the cardboard is much more fulfilling to me, than the plastic one.

I suppose it's because I'm so old I remember the feeling.

Well, GeoffR so rudely woke me up from my blissful oblivion... as soon I saw his photos I remembered what's it's like. Went back to my vinyls collection just to touch them. If you grew up with CDs only I suppose it could be difficult to understand...............

-
Well it's certainly a nice thing to have, but as far as sound goes, well, it's a bit of a complex one.

I've always found Recurring Dream a bit uneven for sound. The CD is a little bit more compressed that I prefer, although not in the grossly destructive way Neil got his stuff done 5-10 years later. I think the LP shares this (to be honest I have no idea how the LP was mastered. Could have been from the master files for the CD for all I know, which would explain the similarity). Also tonally it is a little strange- some tracks seem brighter than they were originally, but others don't.

As far as the first three albums go, you'd be better served with the original pressings I think.

Together Alone tracks are a bit of a quandary - the source is probably better on the orignal pressing, but on the other hand the original is limited by the fact that it is a 52 minute album crammed onto one disc. The songs have a lot more space to play with on RD, and I think they show a bit more bass presence as a result.

The new tracks all sound pretty nice. NTGYTYA is particularly lovely. It might be worth it just for them, depends what you can pick it up for.

I should add a disclaimer though - I bought my copy back in 1997 and played it a LOT on my crappy black plastic Kenwood stacker system turntable. With a worn stylus. As a consequence my copy is a bit noisy and probably doesn't sound as good as it originally did... Ahh the stupidity of youth. Frowner

If I ever see another copy about for a reasonable price, I will certainly buy it. Does that help?
quote:
Originally posted by GeoffR:
Well it's certainly a nice thing to have, but as far as sound goes, well, it's a bit of a complex one.

I've always found Recurring Dream a bit uneven for sound. The CD is a little bit more compressed that I prefer, although not in the grossly destructive way Neil got his stuff done 5-10 years later. I think the LP shares this (to be honest I have no idea how the LP was mastered. Could have been from the master files for the CD for all I know, which would explain the similarity). Also tonally it is a little strange- some tracks seem brighter than they were originally, but others don't.

As far as the first three albums go, you'd be better served with the original pressings I think.

Together Alone tracks are a bit of a quandary - the source is probably better on the orignal pressing, but on the other hand the original is limited by the fact that it is a 52 minute album crammed onto one disc. The songs have a lot more space to play with on RD, and I think they show a bit more bass presence as a result.

The new tracks all sound pretty nice. NTGYTYA is particularly lovely. It might be worth it just for them, depends what you can pick it up for.

I should add a disclaimer though - I bought my copy back in 1997 and played it a LOT on my crappy black plastic Kenwood stacker system turntable. With a worn stylus. As a consequence my copy is a bit noisy and probably doesn't sound as good as it originally did... Ahh the stupidity of youth. Frowner

If I ever see another copy about for a reasonable price, I will certainly buy it. Does that help?


Thanks for the assessment, Geoff. I've been tempted to track this one down because the CD is appreciably louder than the original CDs and I'd quite like to get hold of less-compressed-but-for-preference-uncompressed versions of the new tracks.

As for speakers... I have sneaky suspicion that mine might be a weak link in my chain. While an upgrade may prove beneficial, I fret that my room set up will nullify any such benefit.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
As for speakers... I have sneaky suspicion that mine might be a weak link in my chain. While an upgrade may prove beneficial, I fret that my room set up will nullify any such benefit.


Sorry, don't understand Confused please translate "room set up will nullify benefit"
quote:
Originally posted by Kittybear:
quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
As for speakers... I have sneaky suspicion that mine might be a weak link in my chain. While an upgrade may prove beneficial, I fret that my room set up will nullify any such benefit.


Sorry, don't understand Confused please translate "room set up will nullify benefit"


My translation for that is 'real life gets in the way'. Very few people are lucky enough to have a perfect sounding room to dedicate to their stereo. Thus arranging it all is a compromise between making the most of the equipment and having a room that is still useable for other stuff. And it does make a difference, particularly with big speakers and/or high volume playback. In my case, my room is reasonably large, but is also the central room in the house, with screen doors, hallways etc etc much reducing the usable space.

Paul, I haven't done a direct comparison between LP and CD for Recurring Dream. IIRC Not The Girl sounded fairly nice on the CD as well. The old tracks are definitely more compressed on the LP than on the original albums, but I guess that is par for the course.
KB, Geoff is spot on: my speakers sit on a shelf barely four feet apart. Between them sit my 7" singles. Above and to the sides, I have objects (door, more shelves) which all have smooth surfaces. My computer desk sits below the shelf so, between it and me, is my pc set up (monitor etc). All of these things provide a variety of reflective surfaces off which the sound can bounce around, cancelling some elements out and magnifying others.

I sit no more than three feet from them - "nearfield", it's called. Very few speakers are able to deliver good sound in this kind of set up. It probably breaks EVERY rule in the "Guide to Good Sound" manual. But I just don't have the space to do it any other way. Consequently, the sound quality I can extract from ANY system is always going to be compromised (unless I use headphones which, more and more often, I do).

Now, whether or not I actually have the ears to notice any of the imperfections this set up creates is another matter entirely Smiler

Oh, and Geoff, I hold you directly responsible for the order I placed this lunchtime for US copies of CH and TOLM Smiler. The first is factory sealed, the second - apparently - Near Mint.

Here we go...
Uh oh!! Now look what you`ve all done!!

My head is swimming thinking of the best room in the house to take over for a overhaul into the perfect music room and Hubby would have no complaints except for the costs! lol

And we will all be fighting for the vinyl out there!!
quote:
originally posted by GeoffR:

Very few people are lucky enough to have a perfect sounding room to dedicate to their stereo. Thus arranging it all is a compromise between making the most of the equipment and having a room that is still useable for other stuff.


quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:

All of these things provide a variety of reflective surfaces off which the sound can bounce around, cancelling some elements out and magnifying others.


That's true. It's very difficult to have a big enough room, and not crammed with things disturbing and absorbing sounds. I'm lucky to have a decent sitting room, with only a coach and then some space and the wall in front of the speakers, but the irony is that the ones in the sitting room are small, while in my tiny study I have the big ones (from my father-in-law). The study is full of book and objects, and the sound goes out of the door (5 feet from the speakers). Still in the studio I often hear detais I don't notice in the sitting room.

The sound output is VERY different from one room and the other, and still different in the car (strangely not a very bad system).

I had a very old, I dare to say prehistoric amplificator, but I don't know why I felt to urge to change that in the middle of 2011... and the CD reader too.

I guess the equipment is very important with CD, but even more with vinyls. I suppose it's the analogicity of the signal. As soon as I will buy some CH vinyl I'll have to change the stylus too (well, good occasion to change the whole turntable, maybe).

Will abuse of your patience, geoffR, and PM you for suggestions...

quote:
Idem:

"Guide to Good Sound" manual


Does that really exist? Ok, I suppose it does...

I don't want to read it, I don't want to know all the mistakes I make: if there's no possibility to fix them it would just do me "a bad blood".

-
quote:
Originally posted by Eudoxia:

"Guide to Good Sound" manual


Does that really exist? Ok, I suppose it does...[/QUOTE]

I would direct you to Barry Diament's website where he explains in great (but easy to understand) detail how to improve sound at home.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
Oh, and Geoff, I hold you directly responsible for the order I placed this lunchtime for US copies of CH and TOLM Smiler. The first is factory sealed, the second - apparently - Near Mint.

Here we go...


Pretty sure I'll be happy to take the 'blame' for that one. Smiler Just need to get my 'RL' cut US TOLM and I'm done... Jealous of you having a copy winging its way to you!
Are you all doing that on purpose? Do you really want to kill me?

I mean, if you have to post a photograph of a CH vinyl, can't you find something different from TOLM?

My husband worries when I turn green an roll on the carpet back and forth...

Frowner Frowner Frowner

-
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rickenbacker:
Haven't posted in a long time over here. Thanks for the assessment of the different releases Geoff.

I want to add that TOTLM on vinyl, and a Dutch DMM pressing at that, kills the US CD version. I found the CD version to be overly bright without bass definition.



Hello hello, I recognise that turntable from a certain other place! I had no idea you were a member over here. Welcome back.

So a DMM copy is less bright than the US CD? Interesting... I wouldn't have expected that.

PS if you REALLY want to upset Eudoxia, post the rear sleeve! Big Grin
Thanks for starting the discussion Eudoxia - and sorry I missed your question to me in the other thread. GeoffR has done an admirable job with the tips, explanations and photos.

Re: Woodface - I have only ever seen a plain white inner sleeve - in regular issues,the EMI 100 issue, and Simply Vinyl.

Buying sealed copies: If you like the covers to be pristine and perfect as well as the vinyl look at the photo carefully for any 'drill holes' or 'deletion cuts'. These were added when the LPs were onsold after being deleted from the catalogue or sold for a discount price. These seem to be most common in U.S. listed copies of LPs. I have seen these on the CH debut LP.

A drill hole looks like the hole from a paper holepunch and is common near the upper left corner of the sleeve. A deletion notch is common along the top or bottom of the lp but can also be on the spine side. It is a thin rectangular cut that goes through both the front and back of the lp.

Experienced sellers will mention this in the description if it exists - some people don't mind it. If you can't tell from the photo(s) or are just not sure and it matters to you ask the seller.

Some more shots:I have compressed these to 'web page' size for size considerations

TOLM Set

Front



Back



Inner Sleeve - Both Sides





Pajama Club Set: quality of the cover and inner sleeve stock is terrific - particularly the thick glossy inner sleeve

Front



Back



Inner Sleeve - Both Sides


quote:
Originally posted by She will have her way:
Re: Woodface - I have only ever seen a plain white inner sleeve - in regular issues,the EMI 100 issue, and Simply Vinyl.


That clears that one up then. It IS odd how they never bothered to reproduce the material from the CD booklet as a printed inner.

On the subject of Woodface, have you heard the EMI 100 version? If so, how does it compare to the regular issue?

quote:
Originally posted by She will have her way:

Buying sealed copies: If you like the covers to be pristine and perfect as well as the vinyl look at the photo carefully for any 'drill holes' or 'deletion cuts'. These were added when the LPs were onsold after being deleted from the catalogue or sold for a discount price. These seem to be most common in U.S. listed copies of LPs. I have seen these on the CH debut LP.

A drill hole looks like the hole from a paper holepunch and is common near the upper left corner of the sleeve. A deletion notch is common along the top or bottom of the lp but can also be on the spine side. It is a thin rectangular cut that goes through both the front and back of the lp.

Experienced sellers will mention this in the description if it exists - some people don't mind it. If you can't tell from the photo(s) or are just not sure and it matters to you ask the seller.


Very good point I neglected to mention. I've never ended up with one of these- a very annoying practice for sure.

Thanks for the TOLM photos too. Don't think I'd seen the inner before.
quote:
Originally posted by GeoffR:

On the subject of Woodface, have you heard the EMI 100 version? If so, how does it compare to the regular issue?


I'd like to spin both of these again on the new turntable before I give an answer here - it's been a while since I played the EMI 100. Give me a couple of days Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by GeoffR:

PS if you REALLY want to upset Eudoxia, post the rear sleeve!


Well, SWHHW did it for you and nailed the last nail on my coffin......


(there's no emoticon with the little face desperately crying. I think it should be added)

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Ok experts! I went shopping today for a turn table and I want opinions!

$180 CDN



It's my top runner. 212 Electronic. Sounded like it was what I was looking for. One of the guys at the booth was a little sketchy, but the other seemed to know what he was talking about and said he had done the maintenance on it. Also says it will hook up to my existing surround system. But I want to know it's worth the $180!

$130



This is a 604 Electronic full auto return. BUT! It will not talk to my existing system, so I'm in for a full system to play it. Negates the cheaper price.

$89



Pioneer belt drive. Not sure what that means, sadly didn't get to talk to this guy, he was selling a first press of something Buddy Holly I think to a kid!! I was impressed by the kids knowledge, but my kids were running around like fools so I couldn't listen in, or wait around to talk to the dude.

$129



Noresco again, same guy I couldn't talk to today, but this is what I saw on my excursion. Also did some digging through the vinyls but no CH to be found today.

What I learned: Don't bring the kids, You have to buy stuff to shut them up.
Must bring Hubby, he understands when they start getting technical.
Take better pics so I can come back to you guys for help! lol
Hi TruTwisty,

Couple of questions for you. Why will the Phillips 212 work wih your receiver but the Dual won't? As far as I would expect, both would need a phono preamp (your receiver may or may not have one built in). The only reason I could think of was a) you were supplied incorrect info in regards to one of them, or b) the Dual comes with a moving coil cartridge rather than a moving magnet cartridge- I can't tell in that photo. MC carts usually have even lower output than MM carts so need a different phono preamp setup. However it would be extremely unusual for a table in this price range to come with an MC cart, so I suspect both are the same.

What Pioneer is that? Looks a bit like the Pioneer PL-12D I mentioned upthread. Possibly a PL-12D mk2?

At the risk of appearing either a hypocrite or an idiot or both (seeing as I spent a LOT of money on a 30 year old Direct Drive turntable, but at least in my case Pioneer pledged to keep spares FOREVER for their Exclusive line of products, so I'll always be able to get it repaired if necessary), I would probably get the Pioneer. They are simple as anything, a power supply, a motor and a couple of switches, so hardly anything to go wrong. The Phillips has a few electronic bobbins on it which could go wrong, and the Dual, while possibly sounding the best of the three, is direct drive and full of electronic bobbins. If they go wrong the speed control will go all over the place. I don't know, but often parts are the problem on DD turntables as they rely on long out of production chips. Which means you're knackered if you need a replacement.

Condition obviously has an impact, and maybe it would be useful to know what cartridge these tables come with (unless you intend to replace the cart on whatever you buy).

Also unless I'm missing something, either your receiver will have a built in phono preamp and will work with all of them, or it won't have one, and won't work with any of them. In which case, as long as there is a line in/aux in on it, you can buy an external phono preamp and use any of the turntables (the phono preamp going between the turntable and your receiver).

Clear as mud?

EDIT: one other thing. You mentioned maintenance being done on the Phillips. If so, can you find out what was done? If all the capacitors were replaced, then you are likely to have a table that stays reliable. Same goes for the Dual. The commonest problem with old gear is capacitors either going out of spec, or blowing. Replacing them is easy, the only problem is that sometimes they can take something else out with them, like chips. Recapping is great preventative maintenance once gear gets to 30 plus years old. I should really get mine done!

If you want lots of opinions, from people who have experience with these individual tables, try asking at vinylengine.co.uk and/or audiokarma.org. Plenty of knowledgeable people thereabouts.
ON the 212, I'm sure the guy said he replace the cartridge. There is a fuzzy place in my brain where I had to call hubby in, but I realize that I forgot to tell you what I already have lol

I have two full surround dvd systems. One is an LG 5 channels and a sub woofer. The other is a little older RCA same deal as the LG.

The guy at the market said that the 212 would work with the existing aux input/out. The 604 wouldn't.

I will take this info with me this weekend and see about the pioneer. I'm far more likely to talk hubby into the $89 than the $180 Wink

Thank you so much for your input Geoff!!
Just got back from work to find my US vinyl copies of the debut and TOLM waiting for me.

A quick inspection of the deadwax provides the following info:

CH: F-3 B-23735-F3 [triangle] 12730 1-2 with the name Wally etched next to Mastered by Capitol. The sleeve and inner have been subjected to that unfortunate practice of hole punching SWHHW referred to upthread. Regardless, the artwork looks so much better.

TOLM: C1-48763-Z1 DMM and C1-48763-Z2 DMM. Interesting that "DMM" appears. Were all copies Direct Metal Mastered or is this a later pressing?

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